For More Info:

Richard's Website

Resources Mentioned:

Better Than Real Life: How Silicon Valley’s Secret Sauce of Persuasive Design is Stealing Childhood,  by Dr. Richard Freed

Wired Child: Reclaiming Childhood in a Digital Age 

By Dr. Richard Freed

The Shallows

By Nicholas G. Carr

Hillary Wilkinson: (00:00)

The term digital wellness is relatively new. It's so new, in fact, that I often have to explain what it is when I get asked the question that opens most cocktail party conversations of, so what do you do? So when I took my first stab at understanding what was happening to my attention span and why my son was attracted to screens more than any other activity, I opened this journey with two books. One was The Shallows, what the Internet Is Doing To Our Brains by Nicholas Carr. And that kind of gave me a feel for what was happening to my brain, but nothing explained what was happening to my child's brain, like the book: Wired Child, Reclaiming Childhood in a Digital Age by Dr. Richard Freed.

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:05)

So Wired Child was the book that validated and verified what I intuitively knew and what I knew professionally as a teacher. It really set the framework for how we began our own family's journey with digital wellness. And knowing that this book was instrumental in my understanding of digital wellness, you can imagine how thrilled I am that Richard Freed has published a new book, exposing how Silicone Valley has employed neuroscience to hack developing brains, promote addictive behavior, all for profit. And the book is: Better Than Real Life: How Silicone Valley's Secret Science of Persuasive Design is Stealing Childhood. And he's here, the guy who helped me start it all. Thank you for being here and welcome to Healthy Screen Habits, Dr. Richard Freed.

Dr. Richard Freed: (02:06)

Hillary, thank you so much for having me here. I'm, I'm blessed to be here, um, uh, with your group and your podcast. Like thank you so much. You do great work. And, um, uh, I, I know your work and this is where, it needs to happen. Uh, what parents are not getting out there is science and, uh, how that affects families. 'cause as I talk about in, in my new book, uh, pop culture is really deceiving families about what's needed. 

Hillary Wilkinson: (02:40)

Where did you get started? What fuels your passion?

Dr. Richard Freed: (03:12)

I am a clinician. Um, first and foremost my day job is to sit with families and I've, I'm gonna date myself, but I've been a clinician for 25 plus years, and I've watched what's happened to childhood by parents coming into my office. It's broken down a lot by gender because persuasive design really goes after gender-based vulnerabilities. But I've watched girls disappear to their back rooms on phones and social media and withdraw themselves from their family, develop body image disturbance and, um, just fall apart. And I can't tell you how many times girls they go to the hospital if, uh, psychiatrically because something's happened on social media, but there's the content, but then there's this big, what social media has done is pull kids away from the things that they really need. And that's their, their family's number one and school number two.

Dr. Richard Freed: (04:18)

And then for boys, if you and I visited a typical co typical college and we counted, um, men and women there, they would be nearly 60% women. Mm-hmm . Um, at a typical college. So you really see that in practice. Why is my smart boy, uh, disappearing from school? Why, why, why does he not care? How come I can't get him interested? Um, and video games are really a powerful culprit. So I've, I've seen that it's driven me to, uh, bring this messaging out and to describe why is digital media different? What is there is a hidden science underneath, uh, behind kids screens that are, that's pulling them away. And my job is to help us what that is and what we can do to help kids out.

Hillary Wilkinson: (05:10)

What I appreciate is that you have kind of taken the knowledge that you've gathered and distilled down all of the research and created, I won't say I won't, I won't call it a playbook, but I will call it a handbook on, um, it's fantastic as far as the exposure of what has been happening in Silicon Valley with its targeted approach towards, towards childhood. As I was reading it, , the thing that kept coming to my brain was, you know how you have some playlists that you kind of like, you like to listen to, but you spend a lot of time like hitting skip or shuffle on, 'cause the songs just aren't hitting. And or maybe you don't even like 'em. And then you have others that you can like, just set it and forget it. 'cause every song is so good. And I feel like Better Than Real Life is like one of these great playlists. Every chapter is a banger. It just like, it hits different for every, you hit ev like you hit ed tech, you hit, you know, gender discrepancies, you hit companies, and it's, you're just peeling this onion back and exposing things that the general public is not privy to. And this whole concept of persuasive design is just one of those things. So that we're all on the same page, can you define persuasive design?

Dr. Richard Freed: (08:04)

Um, I, Hillary, I just wanna comment. Um, no one knows, uh, about persuasive design or, uh, you know, I go talk to large groups of, of medical professionals and I'm like, okay, who knows about persuasive design? And not a single hand goes up. I would like to make persuasive design a household word. Like families need to know what is changing their kids. The book is really an untold story of how, here's this, um, this industry that's coming about right after the two thousands, and all it wants is to increase time on device. And then here's this science that's being developed at Stanford University by Dr. BJ Fogg, right at, in the, in the, in the nineties. I consider him the leading father, Dr. BJ Fogg, Stanford professor psychologist at, uh, uh, at, at Stanford, and, and does the, and started the Persuasive Tech Lab.

Dr. Richard Freed: (09:13)

And, um, and, and it's really about building digital machines that employ psychology, um, with, with the idea to control human behavior. And some of that can be okay, because when we go as adults onto a website and it's functioning well, um, that's persuasive design. When we go to a website and it's not, and we're like, this is clunky and I can't get anywhere, and, you know, God forbid I can't buy what I wanna buy. Like, um, that's persuasive design. So that's a good, appropriate use of persuasive design. But to have a profession of psychology and neuroscientists come together with Silicon Valley, that, that wants to alter childhood, to pull it away from essential real-world activities, to put it on a screen, to have it live there 24/7, that is a not okay use of persuasive design. And, and that's what I focus on.

Hillary Wilkinson: (10:06)

Right. It reminds me of, um, our former Surgeon General Vivek Murthy, who said, you're pitting children against the, the best computer programmers and designers in the country, it's not a fair fight. And it's not a fair fight for families as well.

Dr. Richard Freed: (10:24)

Um, totally agree. And what's really profound is Dr. Fogg who largely fathered this science.  I believe I wrote the first major media article about persuasive design and it's taking childhood, um, back in 2018. And that, that was the genesis. It really speaks to how long this book has taken. But, um, Dr. Fogg responded to that article and said, “I didn't do this. I, I studied the science and I warned about it.” He was not happy with that article, but he, and it, it's almost like he doesn't, you know, what is it about a science that a leading father of it does wants to, to wash his hands of it mm-hmm. And say, “I didn't do that,  That my job was to warn about it.” But he, but he, you know, you see in other places that I, “I fathered the science, or I started it” and “the co-founder of Instagram took my class, uh, and, and took, did my teachings and used that, um, to influence lots and lots of people” like, and those, those are the kids that I'm seeing disappear from my practice.

Dr. Richard Freed: (11:33)

So, um, it, it, it's really an untold story, um, that I wanted to bring to parents, to educators, to, to healthcare professionals. It's just, it's, it's not known. I didn't know that much about it and Silicon Valley hides it, like, it, it's, they don't want this to be known, you really have to go dig. It's not out there. 

Hillary Wilkinson: (12:01)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm . So this whole, this whole business, um, of combining neuroscience with, um, programming, with, you know, app development, et cetera, it always, in, in this kind of digital wellness arena, it gets referred to as the attention economy, right? So it's, um, how can we make the most money off of keeping you online and kind of the godfathers or the, the puppet masters/granddaddies, you know, use whatever term you want, are absolutely gonna be BJ Fogg. And I also put like Nir Eyal in that, in that category as well. I just wonder, do you like, I mean, do you think it was just a matter of time? I mean, is it, is it these guys or is it like, was it just a matter of time until this got unlocked? 

Dr. Richard Freed: (12:56)

You know, that's so interesting. I think about that, Hillary, that is a great question, and I think about that a lot. And I think about the human condition that we are driven to explore and to invent new technologies and not think so much about the consequences. Let's rush figure out nuclear fission and nuclear fusion. And this is gonna be a wonderful thing. And then we're also gonna use that as, as a means to build weapons that could destroy the earth tomorrow. We, we just rush ahead. Um, and I, I really think you see that with a development of persuasive design. I, I, I call it shoot first and ask questions later. You know, you see it, uh, with, early research, we're gonna, we're gonna build this. Isn't this amazing? Uh, we'll explore ethical concerns later that will be up to somebody else.

Hillary Wilkinson: (13:54)

Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . It's not to go all sci-fi on you, but it's very Jurassic Park. It's very Michael Chrichton where it's the, what's the phrase? It's, it's: We were so busy wondering if we could, we never stopped to think if we should.”  You know?

Dr. Richard Freed: (14:06)

Exactly.

Hillary Wilkinson: (14:07)

Yeah. So when we come back, let's talk more about the different ways that boys and girls are affected by persuasive design. And, and again, take like a deeper dive into why the whole practice of it is essentially unknown.

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Hillary Wilkinson: (00:00)

I'm speaking with Dr. Richard Freed,  psychologist and author of the new book, Better Than Real Life: How Silicone Valley's Secret Science of Persuasive Design is Stealing Childhood. So, Richard, you reveal how Silicone Valley as an industry is using psychology, a discipline associated with healing and mental health as a weapon against kids in order to pull them online and keep them there. And I can absolutely see the differences in the way that they use tech. And chapter three of your book is, um, hacking Children's Stone Age, DNA. So let's get into it. Let's talk about why, like, what's going on here?

Dr. Richard Freed: (00:55)

That is at the heart of, of persuasive design. That's why persuasive design works. We are humans walking around on this earth that have brains that evolved for 4 million years to exist in a completely different environment, in a hunter-gatherer environment. That's what we evolved to succeed in. One of one defined by scarcity, um, a hardscrabble life every day was, uh, uh, tough and a struggle to survive. And now we're in this relative time of abundance where you can, uh, get, there's, there's a fridge and there's a device that I'm walking around that can, um, give me, uh, doses of, of dopamine driving entertainment all the time. So we're walking around on this earth. You know, life changed about 10,000 years ago, a little bit when we moved towards more of a, a agrarian farming, but it's really in the past, I don't know, 50 years, and then in this time of, of digital media that it, it's, things are changing exponentially.

Dr. Richard Freed: (02:04)

As I talk about, one of the key ways to, to go after kids, um, is to hack their, um, stone age DNA. We're gonna go in and we're gonna exploit that. And you see, um, Dr. Fogg literally tell you how to do that when we're talking about gender differences, one of the, another key way that I talk about, uh, persuasive design is, uh, su what I call supernormal technology. Mm-hmm . And that is coming off of, uh, supernormal stimuli. And supernormal stimuli was invented or found by, uh, Nicholas Tinbergen, who won the Nobel Prize, um, in medicine. But it's essentially creating manmade, hyped up artificial stimuli that go after our, um, our, our our DNA essentially. You know, this isn't just, um, building screens that are more entertaining for your kid than real life. It is going at the core of kids', um, DNA to their genetics, to their development and saying, this is where you should spend your, your time at the expense of, of, of real life. And if you want, I can speak a little bit now to the differences between how it goes after boys and how it goes after girls.

Hillary Wilkinson: (03:37)

Yeah, I'd like to do that because I, you know, we speak with a lot of parents and there are arguments, uh, that, like, say for example, boys who are very into streaming or on gaming while streaming, and they talk about wanting to become pro YouTubers, and like, I, I think it's important that we give parents some ready knowledge as to why this is incredibly, um, slim chances of happening .

Dr. Richard Freed: (04:15)

Yeah. I I have two daughters. They're older now. Um, and I'm a big fan of, uh, you know, gender e equality. I, I want like, my girls to have, uh, or daughters to have a chance at, at life, just like, sort of like in to get jobs and, and so forth. But there really are gender-based differences. And, and that's, and super normal technology goes right after those. So women, and this starts for girls at a very, very young age, maybe five, six. They have strengths in social cognition and social understanding and, um, and altruism. Um, they are amazingly helpful. And this was super amazingly helpful in a hunter-gatherer environment that we always lived in of 60 to a hundred people. I'm gonna help everybody out. I'm gonna know everyone now. We're gonna exploit that through supernormal technology by developing, uh, social media that is, uh, we're gonna tweak it such that it becomes a manmade artificial stimulus that goes right after girls' DNA, um, with, uh, quantified and gamified social connection, uh, that is artificial.

Dr. Richard Freed: (05:26)

Mm-hmm. It, it's much like, um, uh, the fast food industry, developing food in a back room that really goes after our, that's another super normal stimuli, but we're gonna essentially do this, or, or cigarette, the cigarette industry did the same thing. They're gonna add various, uh, uh, um, components to the cigarette and to tobacco to make it more addictive. And that's what the social media industry has done, and it really goes after that, that core girl, um, uh, and young woman strength. And what's really tragic, and you see it and it's so sad, is that, you know, Dr. Fog knows down at Stanford, he says that, you know, we're gonna develop this psychologically driven technology that exploits, uh, this drive towards social connection. But we're, you know, what's even more powerful, he says, than social connection. A fear of social rejection. Mm. And we're gonna go after that. We're gonna target it like we're gonna u the social media companies are gonna use that. So girls have this FOMO, I can't put my phone down, I'm gonna lose my tribe. It's, and my tribe is set up on this random reward slot machine of, uh, of social connections that, uh, girls, you know, can't, literally can't put down.

Hillary Wilkinson: (06:47)

Right. They, they, they can see the numbers getting driven by likes and by comments. And, and I, I feel like, um, every,  I am gonna be generous here and say “attempt” by social media companies to retrofit their, uh, their platforms to make them appear more teen. You know, teen healthy is, it's a second act, it's not designed in a way that is ever as good as that, that first, I feel like there's not as much research that goes into the helping part as there was the original design.

Dr. Richard Freed: (07:33)

The core of social media companies and, when executives have left social media companies, they say, all we really care about is time on device. And that does not change. Mm-hmm . And we, what we don't, we less understand in modern day culture is it's been normalized that we don't recognize this tremendous shift that's happened in childhood and adolescence, but what, what people don't know is that even if you have a 13-year-old if you have a 17-year-old, um, boy or girl, their most important social connection should be number one with family and number two school. And for homeschooled kids, that would mean whoever's teaching them that might be their parent. So whatever, home and school and the researchers that look into this stuff, and they're at the highest levels of great research.

Dr. Richard Freed: (08:35)

They'll just say, we, we know peer connections really don't help youth. Like what keeps kids from being depressed and suicidal is number one, their family. And number two school, they, they, yes, they'll study peers, but they say, you know, and they, there's actually some evidence to suggest that really of strong peer connections can be hurtful. And I see that in my practice all the time, because what happens is kids, young people, it's normalized that that girls, let's say, disappear to a back room to connect with their friends all, all day. Their number one most important connection should be with family. And if they don't have that, they're more likely to get depressed. They're more likely to get suicidal.

Hillary Wilkinson: (09:14)

Well, and see, that's so interesting to me because there's this huge argument whenever you talk about social media for like, you know, pro-social media comments, is that it helps marginalized kids find community. And so what's your response to that?

Dr. Richard Freed: (09:32)

I, I, I talk about that in my book, and we really, that is such a compelling argument. But what we really have to understand is that is how, um, legally that is how the legal teams of the social media industry are, are pushing back in court cases like that is essentially their defense line. And they go reach out to marginalized communities and say, uh, they try to connect with them and they say like, oh, this, you know, uh, join with us. Look, can't you really see, but what we, what really exposes that argument as, uh, as false, uh, hearted is look at the people at the very top of the tech industry. Look at the people, uh, who are at the very top of the health bodies. Look at the people who are at the very top of what I call the Silicon Valley propaganda machine, which are, they are, while they're pushing that message, that industry aligned message, their organizations are, uh, their, their organizations are pushing, “oh, your kid needs social media.” Up at the top, they are saying, “No way -  my kid gay or straight, need family, um, number one and school number two, and we're gonna work like crazy to keep our kids off of these devices.

Hillary Wilkinson: (10:56)

Right. So let's talk more about this, this whole Silicone Valley propaganda machine to use your, your term. But it's like, why is this whole use of persuasive design essentially unknown? Like, how is it going under the radar?

Dr. Richard Freed: (11:12)

You were amazing in that you, uh, interviewed Francis Haugen, and when you did, Francis said, “When I got to Facebook, I was blown away by how, um, powerful its reach is.” And, um, what you see in, in my domain is the same thing whenever, um, there are key gatekeepers to, um, you know, social media came on the scene right after let's say 2000 and the aughts and so forth. How did that take over our kids' lives? Facebook was, uh, Facebook and all these companies and and Zuckerberg have been way out front. They knew who the gatekeepers were. They went and aligned with them, oftentimes financially to have people that we trust, um, and, and say that, that we should trust them and say that they're objective and they have oftentimes aligned with them. And, and Zuckerberg or Facebook are, are sending them money. And lo and behold, what do you know, those, those people that we trust, say social media is a great thing for your kid. Mm-hmm .

Dr. Richard Freed: (12:24)

This may be difficult for parents to hear, um, but the, the lead organization of, of, of what I call the Silicon Valley Cap propaganda machine is one that has been told to parents, we are your leading group. We are the ones that you should trust. We are the ones that you should follow. And that is Common Sense Media. Mm-hmm . They're funded by Zuckerberg, they are funded by, um, Bill and Melinda Gates. They are funded by, um, Best Buy and, and, and, and companies that are very much interested in putting screens before your kids. Right.

Hillary Wilkinson: (13:07)

And I don't think it, I don't think that was always the case though, was it?  I mean, we used to recommend Common Sense Media, and then it was like, uh, and even those of us, like within, within digital wellness, all of a sudden I started getting these tendrils of like,” Oh, wait a minute. Hang on.”  So what am I, am I correct in understanding that?

Dr. Richard Freed: (13:29)

No, you, you've got it. You've very much got it. Correct. I talk about that shift in my book. I think, uh, Jim Steyer, who started that organization, had good intentions when he started. Um, and you really see them push, um, science-based information. Something shifted in, in, in about 2012, um, right after that, um, where their messaging, um, became frankly destructive where they are. Um, and you really, I, I point out this dichotomy where you see, uh, and this is true throughout, um, uh, all these elements with respect to technology, but you see Jim Steyer, who runs, who's the CEO and founder of Common Sense Media saying, “I'm strictly limiting my kids' screen time. This stuff has the potential social media and video games to steal, um, childhood away” … that, that's science-based. That's great. That's, that's, those are my words. Yet its being funded by Zuckerberg, you look at common sense media's message in all their fancy pamphlets and their messaging. It, it is, um, screen time doesn't matter so much. The very opposite of what Zuckerberg says. Um, don't pay attention to it so much. And that screen limits can actually hurt your kid can be destructive when Jim Steyer is protecting his own?

Hillary Wilkinson: (14:56)

Yeah.

Dr. Richard Freed: (14:57)

I felt like I had to call that out.

Hillary Wilkinson: (15:00)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I think, I mean, this kind of goes back to, like you said, like early two thousands when, I mean, it was in, uh, 2010, I believe Steve Jobs famously told a journalist that his kids did not use tablets. They limited technology in the home. And we hear all about these kinds of practices of the, the tech elite, um, attending screen-free schools and all of these things. And I've heard you refer to it as the Silicon Valley exception, and can you talk about that?

Dr. Richard Freed: (15:36)

Yes. It's, to me, we never would let McDonald's fund, um, uh, kids dietary guidelines and, and, and say, well, this is brought to you by Burger King, and this is brought to you by McDonald's. And oh, and behold, your kid should live on a diet of soda and fries would of course be the inevitable conclusion. Yet we see, um, these leading organizations that dominate our pop message about, uh, technology be aligned oftentimes financially with industry. Um, Zuckerberg has given millions to, uh, Common Sense Media. Here's what's also really disturbing the American Academy of Pediatrics. They used to be the Bible. mm-hmm . Until in 2016 something happened. The American Academy of PDI Pediatrics, by and large, is a science-based organization. But there is a small cadre of folks there who have aligned with industry, um, and disturbingly, like we see the, the lead player, uh, Dr. Megan Moreno, who wrote the adolescent guidelines and, and children's guidelines from five to 18, she's been funded by Facebook. You can't do that. She wrote that in 2016. She's been funded by Facebook. She continues to be at, at the American Academy of Pediatrics. She's still part of this organization and was saying screen time is not that important. And, and still promoting and pushing social media when she's been funded by Facebook. That is, that's frankly dirty. We can't do that. Right.

Hillary Wilkinson: (17:21)

It's the fox guarding the hen house. Um, and it's, so, uh, the thing I have frustration with the American Academy of Pediatrics, uh, digital guidelines is they're very, they're very, um, prescriptive on like birth through five. And then, like you said, it's like five through 18. It just gets this blanket statement where there's a lot of difference in the, between those years. I mean, there's a lot of difference between 15 and 18, much less five and 18 . So

Dr. Richard Freed: (17:52)

The lead author of the American Academy of Pediatrics is Dr. Megan Moreno, and she has she has gone off on her own tangent. Um, she's a social media advocate. Mm-hmm . Um, you - the American Academy of Pediatrics. It, it's like bringing in a, a, a fast food advocate to make guidelines. No, you just, we just need researchers that, uh, come up with their own independent judgment. Right. You don't need a social media advocate to make your guide, the science-based element of the American Academy of Pediatrics says screen time is a risk for your kid. Yet the, the, the media line folks, right. Screen time is not, you cannot have two different types of science within one organization. It is, you're lying to the public.

Hillary Wilkinson: (18:55)

Right. Right. Okay. So the first step in activism is awareness building. And I think you've certainly done that with us today and with writing your book, the next step is a call to action. So I'm asking you, what, what can we do as parents?

Dr. Richard Freed: (19:14)

Firstly, I don't wanna put this all on parents, because it can't be all on parents. I think it's similar to the, uh, tobacco, big tobacco, like we need, uh, schools and, uh, government and all these organizations and healthcare bodies to come together to help parents, uh, protect their kids from the cigarette industry. What can parents do? Um, Hillary like this, this is what parents need to do. They need to join you with healthy screen habits and come to get science and come together in a community and, uh, that that is science-based. And then, and, and take action that way. So I love what you do. I talked in my book, uh, Better Than Real Life about how, um, parents within classrooms come together to say, wait a minute, this, we're getting more and more screens for our kids.

Dr. Richard Freed: (20:08)

This isn't helpful for my kid. And they, they come together and they go to the principal or the superintendent and say, can we not do this? Because as I talk about in my book, like the, those, the tech elite kids, they are not getting screens in their classroom. They are in, in a human-based, small classroom size, uh, where they're bonding with teachers. So anyway, so that I want, um, schools obviously to do their part. And if there is a main message, or one of the main messages that I think is really important, um, for parents is to, you're just gonna hear this pop culture industry aligned message that what kids need most starting about their preteen years is to connect digitally with online peers and online strangers. And that's what they need to find. But we see science tell us over and over, and this is true for, um, for straight kids, and this is true for L-G-B-T-Q kids, uh, we see that kids need number one, a, a strong connection with family. So that as families, we, we need to reach out and do everything to understand our teenagers need us, number one, and then we need to have them connect with school. And that means the institution and the teachers there and some kids there, let's, let's, let's make those bonds happen and understand that unfortunately, because of persuasive design, um, technologies have the risk of pulling your kids away from number one and number two, family and school. 

Hillary Wilkinson: (21:47)

Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . So we have to take a short break, but when we come back, I'm going to ask Richard for his healthy screen habit.

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Hillary Wilkinson:

Richard, on every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask each guest for a healthy screen habit. This is going to be a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice in their own home. What's yours?

Dr. Richard Freed: (22:53)

That's a really good question, and it's taken me a lot of thought. I, I really think parents that come into my office, parents that, um, and educators and, and, and, and, and the highest level, uh, uh, medical and health professionals. We have been deceived by a pop culture that has told us that what our kids need most, as soon as they hit a preteen, and definitely when they're a teen, is that they need their, their online peers. And they need, um, this connection with strangers, uh, most of all. 'cause that's what supposedly makes them happy. That that's a hundred percent bunkum. That is, that is a destructive industry funded, industry aligned message that counters science from the top levels of the best researchers.

Dr. Richard Freed: (23:50)

When we, see what our teenagers and younger people need most, it's number one, a connection with family. And number two, a connection with school. The problem with persuasively designed technologies is we hand them to kids and they will displace that, that kids will disappear from family. They will disappear from their connection to school. I think parents know this in their heart. Um, you know, they're being told,my kid needs their phone and I should just let them live in a back room, because that's what they supposedly need. That is a lie. Your your kid needs you mm-hmm . Family, and then they need to go to school where they aren't on a phone all day, and they need to be connecting with their teachers and the other kids at school and the school staff, and feel at home there.

Dr. Richard Freed: (24:48)

This is what, so take that. That's it. Just take that, that that big industry lie, that industry pushed lie that, and, and that's true for straight kids. Um, and that's true for L-G-B-T-Q kids because there, there's research that says what makes, uh, what makes our kids, um, not be depressed. What protects 'em from being depressed and suicidal and self-injury, and whether kids are, are, are straight or L-G-B-T-Q, um, it is number one, a connection with family and number two, a connection with school. Um, and that's what's gonna keep our kids healthy and happy.

Hillary Wilkinson: (25:26)

I couldn't agree more. We, our, our mission statement at Healthy Screen Habits is to educate and empower families to create their own healthiest online habits while maintaining technology as a tool, never a replacement for human connection. And that's, I, I could not agree with you more. I'm also going to add onto your Healthy Screen Habit and recommend that everybody get online right now and order their own copy of Better Than Real Life . Okay. Um, in fact, I'm gonna make it so easy for people to do that. You just simply need to go to the show notes of this episode for a direct link. Go to healthyscreenhabits.org, click on the podcast button and scroll to find this episode. It is a groundbreaking book, and you'll find a complete transcript of this episode as well as a link to that book in those show notes. Richard, thank you so much for being here today and for working so hard to really pull back the curtain on why all of us can't seem to put down devices.

Dr. Richard Freed: (26:33)

Hillary, thank you so much to you and Healthy Screen Habits. Um, it's been an honor to be here and to talk with you and your community.