For More Info:

Swimming UpScreen:

https://swimmingupscreen.com/

Resources Mentioned:

Book:  52 Screen-Free-Experiences for Families

https://www.amazon.com/52-Screen-Free-Experiences-Families-activity/dp/B0DNB56D2D

Blog Post:

https://swimmingupscreen.com/blog/freedom-from-phones

Healthy Screen Habits Podcast with Lenore Skenazy

https://www.healthyscreenhabits.org/blog-search?searchTerm=lenore%20skenazy

Heed The Children

https://www.heedthechildren.org

Hillary Wilkinson: (00:02)

So often in this parenting with tech journey, I have kind of felt like the proverbial salmon swimming upstream, fighting an oncoming current bumping shoulders with those who may or may not have similar beliefs about technology as my family and maximizing all of my energy just to hold my spot in line. So my guest today certainly understands all of these feelings and more. She is the founder of Swimming Up Screen where she blogs about screen-related issues and also shares tips on how to delay or step back from tech overuse as a mom of six and grandmother of three, she's also a former middle school and high school French teacher who had a front row to watching the increasingly negative impact of phones in schools and felt compelled to leave her teaching career in the hopes of finding a way to help schools develop better cell phone policies. So I found her through a variety of professional affiliations as well as through her latest creation, which is this darling family journal. I'm gonna link it in the show notes. It's called 52 Screen-Free Experiences for Families. And we're gonna talk about all of these things. Welcome to Healthy Screen Habits, Kathleen Barlow.

Kathleen Barlow: (01:33)

Thank you so much, Hilary. It is wonderful to be here. That was such a nice introduction. Oh, well,

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:40)

Kathleen, I have to ask, what was, I mean, you have a lot of sort of point data points on what could have brought you to this point. What was the greatest driver that brought you to create swimming up screen and into this sort of, you know, to get, I keep using these fishing analogies 'cause of your name, but this digital wellness pond? .

Kathleen Barlow: (02:01)

Yeah, for sure. Well, yeah, I feel like, you know, I think everybody who is in this kind of space or any who has any kind of passion, I feel like has a story, right? They have a a, a reason why they got into what they're, they're doing. And that's definitely been the case for me just as a mom of six. So my oldest is 31 and my youngest are twins who are just turned 18. And so I have seen in my own family life the, the increasingly negative impact of, of technology, you know, on our, on our kids. And then being a teacher for about 10 years as well. I taught from about 2012 until 2024 last year. Um, I just saw, I saw it there as well. I just saw things were getting worse. And so I'll tell you where the name came from, the Swimming UpScreen, because, um, there's a book called Upstream.

Kathleen Barlow: (02:52)

Mm-hmm . I think it's by Matt or Chip Heath. They're brothers. I don't think both of them wrote it 'cause they wrote another book that I read. But, um, and they start with this story, and I don't know if you've heard the story about where, um, where there's a couple of guys that are, um, just walking along a riverbank for, and they're just enjoying a, they're gonna have a lunch somewhere, right? And then all of a sudden they see around this little riverbank bank comes this child just struggling in the current and screaming for help. And so they immediately go jump into the, this river and, and pull this child out. But as soon as they do, they see another kid coming screaming and, and, and struggling around the bend. And so then they pull this kid out and then pretty soon one of the guys gets out of the river and just starts walking up the riverbank.

Kathleen Barlow: (03:37)

And his friend's like, “Hey, where are you going? I need your help. You know, there's these kids.”  Cause there were more kids coming down by that point, and he said, I'm going to find out why all these kids are coming around, you know, needing this help. And so I have felt like in this technology overloaded world that we're living in, I feel like so many of us are constantly trying to put out fires, right? And we're, we're just, we're just in this reactive mode mm-hmm . And I feel like we need to get on the other side of it so that we can be more proactive and try to fix these issues so that they're not happening in the, in the first place. And so, for many years, like especially as, as a teacher, I've thought if we could just get rid of sc screens of phones in particular outta schools, we are going to eliminate so many issues that are happening in the schools right now. Right. And so instead of principals and administration, spending so much of their time disciplining and figuring out who's bullying, who, who, and you know, what's going on here with the sextortion and all this stuff, if we could just take phones out of the equation at school, I feel like that is, that's what I consider swimming up screen. We're we're going up from the problem and saying, okay, what can we do to prevent all this stuff from happening? Rather than just trying to deal with it, you know, case by case.

Hillary Wilkinson: (04:56)

I totally agree with you. It's like, it's like teaching, um, good nutrition, you know, proper exercise and all of that rather than triage.

Kathleen Barlow: (05:06)

Exactly.

Hillary Wilkinson: (05:07)

Like having to triage.

Kathleen Barlow: (05:09)

Yes, exactly.

Hillary Wilkinson: (05:09)

Yeah. So, I mean, but I, I love that, that sort of little parable

Kathleen Barlow: (05:16)

Oh, good. Have you heard that before? No. No. Okay. Okay. Yeah, it's a really good book too. It's really, so the whole book is focused on that. Like, what can we do to, instead of just always trying to focus on solving problems, how can we try to go ahead of them and prevent some problems from happening, you know?

Hillary Wilkinson: (05:32)

Right, right. So, do you have any, um, just, I, I kind of find that anecdotes and, and parables, . Yeah. Do you have, um, any experiences from your days in the classroom that you like, that you could mention that you saw as like, screens were getting out of control or Yeah, like just, just talk about your experience of being the person in the front of the room Yeah. And looking out and seeing what you were seeing.

Kathleen Barlow: (06:02)

Yeah. Well, I mean, oh my goodness, I could spend three hours, um, talking about this for sure. Alone, Hilary. But, um, just in general, I, I saw, especially, so last year I started teaching at, at a new middle school, and I was trying to decide do I wanna keep teaching or, because my family moved to Utah from New Hampshire about four years ago. And so in that time, I haven't, I've kind of dabbled in a couple, like a long-term sub position. I was teaching online for a little while, but I, I, I was focused more on my family at that point. And so I was, and now I'm at a point like, okay, our youngest are, you know, are seniors and they're gonna be, um, graduating soon. And so I've been trying to figure out, do I wanna go back to teaching? And so I took this, this position, um, that opened up last year, and I just was, I, it, the level of disconnect between myself and my students, I had increased so much. I mean, they were new students for me. So it's hard, you know, to make those connections sometimes, and it takes time to begin with. Mm-hmm. You know mm-hmm . But that's always kind of been my superpower. One of my superpowers I feel like as a teacher is connecting with my students.

Hillary Wilkinson: (07:09)

Building relationships.

Kathleen Barlow: (07:10)

Yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm . And I was just struggling so much. I felt like there was just this wall between us and the wall was technology, you know? Mm-hmm . And I just, it was so hard because with, with these kids when they're, you know, they have these little dopamine machines in their hands, it's really hard to compete with that, you know? Yeah. And I did have a very strict policy last year. I decided that I was gonna try just, uh, because there was no really, uh, strong cell phone policy at the school. So I said, from the moment you enter the classroom till the moment you leave, there are not gonna be phones out. Right. And so, and they, of course, lots of pushback from the students. Sure. And I was the new teacher, and so it wasn't, it, it does not set up a teacher, um, student relationship in the best way when, when you're trying to take away their favorite possession, you know?

Kathleen Barlow: (08:03)

Right. And so, um, I tried just to do so many things. I'll tell you a little story if you don't mind. Sure. Um, of something that happened with, with a student one particular day. So, um, it was Valentine's Day-ish. And, um, I, again, still trying to, trying to figure out what I can do to better connect with these students. I just thought it'd be fun to bring them a little Valentine. And I, you know, I was teaching French, and so, and Utah, at least where I live now, there's not a lot of kids that are, um, looking to study French. So my classes were pretty small. And so I had the luxury of doing this. So I, I brought in treats for my kids, for Valentine, my students for Valentine's Day. And I decided I personalized them all.

Kathleen Barlow: (09:26)

I had them on their desks ready for them when they came in. And I was excited, you know, just, I would try little things like this, but I thought anything I could to try to make some kind of spark of connection, you know? Sure. So, so this one girl came in, I think she was about 15, and she, um, she saw the bag and she immediately sat down and was like, and it was like she was on YouTube like she was talking to an audience and she's like, oh, here, look, the, the French teacher didn't use my name, which was another weird thing that I felt like a lot of times they wouldn't even use your name. I know she knew my name, you know, but she was like, the French teacher gave us a, a Valentine's haul. Let's look. And so then she started pulling out the little treats.

Hillary Wilkinson: (10:06)

Was she recording herself?

Kathleen Barlow: (10:07)

Well, she was doing this, no, she was, but she was, but she was pretending she was. Oh, okay. It was like, she was just pretending she was doing, 'cause I don't know if you've seen that, like they do a haul. Right, right. And so she was just kind of pretending and she was taking out the things and just kind of documenting what she, what she was pulling out of the little bag. There were just a few things in there, but, and the students around were kind of chuckling. You know, the class hadn't quite started. And I was kind of chuckling too. I just thought, it is pretty funny. You know, what she's doing. She's, she's the funny kid. And I was just like, okay, I think there's gonna be, and she was somebody that I was really struggling to make a connection with, and I was like, okay.

Kathleen Barlow: (10:41)

And so I was kind of just waiting for, like, after she was done doing her little, her little spiel, you know, what she was gonna say to me. And I was just so sad that she, not only did she not like thank me, which would've been nice, she didn't even acknowledge me. She didn't look my way. There was nothing. So it was just like this disconnect of, you know, she's being funny and, and, and thinking about what she sees on YouTube when people do these hauls, but was not connecting it to the fact that a real human had had given her these things. And I was looking for a way to connect with, with her and the, you know, the other, other students. And so to me it was just very telling that like, this is not normal. Right. Like, that she's like, she's talking to this fake audience, but yet does not even acknowledge, um, the person, the real person who had actually given her those treats. You know? Right. It was just strange. It's so bizarre. Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (11:37)

Yeah. Yeah. And it really shows, I don't know, like, you know, to borrow a phrase that's been used before, but like, the rewiring of childhood. Yes. You know? Totally. It's, I mean, it, it, it is very, like you said, I think that word disconnect is very telling. Yeah. There are a lot of different campaigns about getting phones outta classrooms and even amongst, uh, teachers, there are different feelings. I've had phone free school movement on. You wrote an article on your webpage Swimming Upscreen about why Bell, why you think Bell to Bell is better. And can you, uh, this is, I mean, it's a whole, it's a lovely long article. Yes. I'm wondering if you can boil it down just a little here.

Kathleen Barlow: (12:37)

Yes. Yeah. Actually, um, and this is a great question because in Utah right now, um, the legislative session is going on, and so we are trying to pass a bill as a cell phone bill, um, for schools. And, um, I went up actually just yesterday at the state capitol and gave a little public comment, um, to the Senate Education Committee, and it did pass unanimously, which is really hopeful. But at the same time, I am, I'm disappointed because they're not, they're not doing a bell to bell uh, bill. the bill is not bell to bell. I've been told that. And I, you know, I haven't worked in this space, the legislative space enough to really, um, I'm not an expert by any means, but I was told that it was not gonna be something that, that this bill would not be passed if it was, if we tried for Bell to be. Okay. And so

Hillary Wilkinson: (13:26)

Just to, let's, let's take a second just to define that term. So

Kathleen Barlow: (13:30)

Bell to, so Bell to bell, yes. Is, so you would, so phones would be gone from when the students arrive in the morning until they leave at the end of the day. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm . Um, whereas the bill that, that Utah's trying to pass now is classroom time only. So that means that students will still have phones between classes. They'll still have phones at lunchtime. And a lot of parents are definitely for this, this policy because they want to be able to stay connected with their kids at every moment. So I'll tell you the, the gist of, of my blog posts, which yeah, I'd love you to read. Um, I mean anybody to read at some point. But the gist of it is that, is part of it is that we are unnaturally tethered to our kids way too much these days. Mm-hmm . They are not being allowed to experience the independence that they need to grow and thrive. And, um, in fact, right now, and it's so funny because it, it really connects with the anxiety and depression that's going on with kids right now. I don't know if you've heard that there are new, um, studies and there are new, um, therapists that are using, they're calling it like independence therapy to combat anxiety and depression. And it is, it has been so successful. I can't think of where I've read about this, but have you heard of the Let Grow Movement with, with Lenore

Hillary Wilkinson: (14:44)

? Yeah. Lenore has actually been a guest on a podcast.

Kathleen Barlow: (14:47)

Oh, I didn't realize that, that episode.

Hillary Wilkinson: (14:48)

Okay. Yeah.

Kathleen Barlow: (14:49)

She's amazing. And I just love what she is trying to do. And, and, and our kids need that. Our kids need to have time away from their parents so that they can try to solve their own problems mm-hmm . And that they can try to think critically. So if you forget your gym clothes at, at home, for example, right. Then can you figure out what am I gonna do? Like we would have to do right. When we were kids, we would've had to think, okay, what am I gonna do? Am I gonna go down and call the office? But I really hate that office lady do, so I do. I really wanna deal with her, but you really have to kind of go through it. Or should I just take a zero for the day and not have my clothes or, you know, what should I do?

Kathleen Barlow: (15:28)

And you have to try to figure those things out. But today most kids can just text mom or dad and say, Hey, come bring me my gym clothes. I forgot 'em, and mom or dad are on their way. You know? And I have done, I have made all the mistakes, Hillary, I have done all the things, and I still make lots of mistakes with my kids and my grandkids. But I've, I just feel like I have a little more awareness than I did about what the effects are of, of what we're doing. And so when we stay that tethered and close to our kids, it's really not healthy for either of us because it makes us I

Hillary Wilkinson: (15:58)

Totally agree.

Kathleen Barlow: (15:59)

Yeah. It makes us both more anxious. It makes the parent and the child more anxious to be in that kind of enmeshed relationship. Right. So. Right. Right. I think that's one of that, that is one of the big things about, of, uh, why Bell to Bell is better, just so that kids can, can separate themselves and really try to gain some independence and some confidence in their own skills.

Hillary Wilkinson: (16:18)

Yeah. Yeah. I agree. In our house, we always had a, um, you get one, I, you know, just to borrow monopoly phrases. Oh yeah. It was one, one, get outta jail free card. Yeah. Person master. Oh, that's awesome. For my kids. 'cause I, you know, I'm, I'm human. I'm like, listen, everybody has a bad day. Everybody makes a mistake. And, you know, and we all Yep. There are times when we all need to ask for help. Right?

Kathleen Barlow: (16:44)

For sure. For sure.

Hillary Wilkinson: (16:45)

So, so I didn't wanna remove that entirely. Yep. But that being said, you got one, get outta jail free card to mom, you know mm-hmm . If you forgot your track shoes, forgot your homework, what, you know, fill in the blank. Right? Yep. And then, and you got, you got to, and it did not roll over. These are not cumulative

Kathleen Barlow: (17:06)

hahaha

Hillary Wilkinson: (17:08)

But because I, my, my theory is once is a mistake, twice is a pattern, ah, and we gotta look and see what, what are we gonna change to help you solve this? This is becoming a problematic pattern. Right.

Kathleen Barlow: (17:22)

I love it. And this is, that is super uncomfortable for the parent and the child to be in that spot. Right? You wanna help, right?

Hillary Wilkinson: (17:30)

Oh, it's horrible..

Kathleen Barlow: (17:31)

You wanna help. And they wanna be helped. And so you just think, well, let's just do it. But we're not doing any favors to either party. Right. When we're just enabling, which I have done plenty of enabling of my kids over the years and, you know, tried to, to kind of roll back and, and co course correct, I guess, you know mm-hmm . Um, but yeah, so that's one of the biggest, the biggest challenges I see with not having a bell to bell. But there are a couple others.

So when we give students phones or access to their phones, um, between classes and at lunchtime, I feel like it does a couple of, of negative things. One is that it is kind of setting them up for these little dopamine hits that they're greatly looking forward to between classes and at lunchtime. And so then they're just so hyper-focused on those little hits that it just kind of undoes the not having them in the classroom. And I feel like we really need to get to a point where we can help our kids realize that out of that, that they can go for six or seven hours without a phone. And so can parents Right. That we, that we can take these, this time to, to, to step away from that virtual world and that it is going to help, it's gonna help our nervous systems.

Kathleen Barlow: (19:29)

It's gonna help. 'cause we are so hyper-stimulated from being on phones all the time. And schools that are doing this, the bell to bell it is going fabulously. I'm working with, uh, the Smartphone Free Childhood organization, which we're a national organization. So we've been kind of tracking this across the country. And there are so many wonderful reports coming from schools that are going bell to bell. And we have not heard one school that has said we regret doing this or that we're, we're going back to phones. You know? 'cause once they do it, the kids are changing. The students are going back to what the way it used to be.

Hillary Wilkinson: (20:06)

And it happens fast. I can speak from experience to this because my daughter just recently, we live in Southern California, and because of the fires and the wind that Southern California was experiencing, we had massive power outages, which lost, um, connectivity, network connection. Oh, right. Right. So the schools were still going, but with, in dark classrooms without computers. Wow. Without, without phone connection. And the report that I got from my daughter was, she said it was so fun. Everybody was talking, everybody was hanging out. And of course, growing up in the healthy screen habits household, she's biased towards screen free activities. It's just, you know, the way she's been raised. But it was, it was so interesting to hear how quickly she felt like people were bonding way faster than, you know, than and at any other point during the semester. Yes. So, yeah.

Kathleen Barlow: (21:14)

What a cool kind of unplanned experience. Not cool, of course, right. For what was happening to those families that I just have been following that and it's been so heartbreaking. But to be able to have a little bit of a silver lining in that you got to see, or that kids got to see, you know, that that was happening. And that was the other thing I was gonna say about when you, when you let the kids have their phones during lunch and in between classes, they're still not gonna be connecting and making those, those, um, attempts at socialization that they, because if you have like, like, uh, the, our phones, we, we call them in the Smartphone Free Childhood. They're frictionless. They're the easiest things in the world to pick up. It's become like muscle memory for so many of us adults and kids alike at this point. Right. And so, when a kid is faced with, okay, am I gonna try to talk to that kid that I've seen in the hallway that seems like, you know, maybe we could be friends, or am I just gonna go back to my game on my phone? That's gonna be a no brainer. Their, their brains are just gonna go, go for that rather than trying to do the more difficult thing of Yeah. Talking to somebody, the

Hillary Wilkinson: (22:15)

Law of the least. That's what Yes. As humans, we always fall for it,

Kathleen Barlow: (22:20)

You know? Yes, for sure. For sure. Yeah. And the last thing, Hilary, I just wanted to mention about the bell to bell, when there isn't bell to bell, the onus is still on the teachers to manage and police the phones. Because if they're coming out between every class, then they're gonna have to go be back in again. And so teachers are still having to be the bad guy and take, you know, have the phones be put away between every class. It is so exhausting. It is such an exhausting thing to do. And it is such a, a, like I've said, a blocker of relationships between students and teachers when, when teachers are trying to take away this most precious item from students. So I, when it's, when it's be to bell, it's out of sight, out of mind for the entire day. And that's gonna be where, where we're gonna see real change.

Hillary Wilkinson: (23:09)

Yeah, I agree. When we come back, let's talk more about what you, you touched on earlier about what parents can do if they want a real tech back in, but they're unsure how to start.

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Hillary Wilkinson: (23:40)

Okay. I'm speaking with Kathleen Barlow, author and creator of The New Family Idea Journal. 52 Screen Free Experiences for Families. I have my own copy. It's beautiful. The cover is one of those, like textures that you just want to keep on touching. It's, it's velvety smooth and brightly colored. It's like, it's one of those books that you can have out on the, uh, coffee table, and it just goes with everything. So I love that about it. You put a, you clearly put a lot of thought into that. Oh,

Kathleen Barlow: (24:16)

Thank you.

Hillary Wilkinson: (24:17)

Um, and I love, there's, it's structured. So there's an activity a week, there's room for journaling, there's some coloring pages. Where did you get your inspiration for all of these great ideas?

Kathleen Barlow: (24:28)

Well, I just feel like when we're trying to look at our screen habits as families, which I think is so important for all of us to do, and my family is certainly far from perfect still. But I think being intentional and aware about it is more than half the battle, right?  I think we've just become, so, it's just become such a part of our culture to constantly be connected to our, to our, um, our devices. And so I think a lot of people aren't even, don't even have that awareness yet. So that's what I was trying to achieve, is, is bring, bring that awareness to the, to the forefront for all of us, you

Hillary Wilkinson: (25:45)

Know? Yeah. I love it. So, um, I don't, I, I've flipped through. I've chosen a few things that are standouts for me. It's just so I can, uh, like, share them here. One thing I really like here is you have for, um, number 41 is make a dopamine menu. Yeah. And you say, talk about dopamine, the neurotransmitter in our brains that keeps us wanting more and more. And this, and I'm, I'm gonna paraphrase this, but, um, do, you know, talk about what high activity, uh, outputs versus low activity and decide which activities would be considered like dopamine, fruits and veggies versus junk food. And then create a dopamine menu. I love the idea. This is so you, it's so swimming up screen. Right, right, right. Yeah. Like catching it before. Yep. And, and I, um, I just, I, I wanna get to the part about how we can help parents, um, reel tech back in, but before, but I just have to mention, one of the cutest ideas I ever saw you share was with, I think it was this past October, you had kids in, I don't know whether they're your children or local children. Oh, yeah. Uhhuh. But you had them, it was right around Halloween time. Yep. And they took Jack-o-Lantern buckets. Yep. And they drilled holes in like zip tied them to the top of their, uh, bicycle helmets. Yeah. And threw a glow stick in them. Yeah. And you took 'em on a trail ride. It was about the cutest sinking thing I'd ever seen. Thank you. Just all these little glowing jack-o-lantern in the heads

Kathleen Barlow: (27:34)

. And you could,

Hillary Wilkinson: (27:35)

I mean, you could hit just the joy coming from, you know, the shrieks and laughing. And I mean, those kids will remember that for the rest of their life. 

Kathleen Barlow: (27:44)

I hope so. I hope so. And that, you know. That was not my idea. Let me tell you. My idea was, well, my husband and I have been mountain bike coaches for our local high school mountain bike team. My daughters who are now 18, they did it a few years ago. They were on the team for a year. And my husband and I loved it so much that even when they were like, no, we're done. Um, we were like, we're staying. So we are kind of coaches, coach, ride leaders that we ride with these kids. There's a bunch of mountain bike trails in our community. And it is like my favorite thing to see these kids do this. Like they, it makes me tear up because these kids are out there doing such hard things, but also having a blast.

Kathleen Barlow: (28:30)

Yeah. You know, they are having flat tires and having to figure out, oh my gosh, what am I gonna do? You know, I've seen kids like holding their bikes, walking down trails, like, 'cause they're like, yeah, we gotta go down. You know, they've just so much problem solving and so much community, so much feel good from being out in nature. So my husband and I have been doing this for several years. It is my favorite thing being out on our trails. Um, and so we decided last spring, and I was, I, I've worked with an organization called Heed the Children, which I know, you know, so Sebastian and Deja, our friends of mine shout out to them if they're listening. Um, but they really focused on trying to build community mm-hmm . And do things in your community. And I had been wanting to start something in my neighborhood.

Kathleen Barlow: (29:17)

I just wanted to start. And I was in my head was thinking, it is gonna be called Friday Night Lights, where we just go out and do a night ride on our bikes in the trails. 'cause my husband and I love, we take our, our headlights and we go out and night rides. It's so fun. Especially in the summer, in warm months. And so I'd been wanting to do this for a while. So I did. So, so all last summer we had this little group, and it kind of turned into, you know, there were different people that would come, but usually there were 10 or 12 of us that would go out on a Friday night.

Kathleen Barlow: (29:48)

Once in a while. My teenagers would come. Usually they didn't. But there were a bunch of younger kids, younger teens there that I was just so happy to because they could experience this joy, you know? And so then that morphed into, I'm pretty sure it was Sebastian who actually told me the idea about this Jack-o-lantern ride that he had seen somewhere. And so it was kind of stolen. But I love this that we can kind of collaborate together and connect with other people and get these awesome ideas, because it was so fun. Hillary, as you described. 

Hillary Wilkinson: (30:18)

And those Yeah, no, those memories will be Yep. The drivers for next year's activities when kids are thinking about what will be fun to do. Like, oh, it's time. Oh my gosh. Can we go on a Jacko lantern? Yes. Jacko Lantern ride instead of like, you know, playing another round of Roblox or another round of whatever. Yep, yep.

Kathleen Barlow: (30:38)

Totally.

Hillary Wilkinson: (30:38)

So, and I love your whole focus on healthy activities for the whole family. Yeah. I can tell you one of the hardest things to hear following a Healthy Screen Habits presentation. This happened right after a Rotary Club presentation. We did, you give the facts and the stats regarding the harms being done to our kids through digital media. And it never fails afterwards. Someone will come up to you, a parent of an older kid, and they'll compliment the work we're doing. Well, they'll agree with its importance, be very, you know, connected. And they'll say, “well, it's too late for my kids. I got a 16-year-old. They're, they're all into everything.” Yeah. And they just, it, they, it's this, this feeling of, I, it's beyond me. Yep. So what, what do you say to people like that?

Kathleen Barlow: (31:26)

Oh, I'm so glad you brought this up, because this recently has been really a, a, something I've been thinking about so much. In fact, I have a blog post that's almost ready to go out that's gonna be called, Giving our Kids Freedom from Phones. And I feel like the message is not being, um, translated out there enough that we can roll back what we've, we can tell our kids, listen, we didn't know that this stuff was so addictive and we made a mistake, but we know more now, and so we're gonna do better. And it's not easy, you know? Mm-hmm . I'm sorry. I just, uh, because I have these, so I have, you know, my, my, my girls who are now 18, they've struggled more than any of my other kids, struggled greatly. I am not gonna go into detail for their privacy sake, but they, I will tell you, it was for parents out there.

Kathleen Barlow: (32:17)

If you've been really struggling with dysregulation with your kids, we saw just about it all. And it, we were kind of at the end of our rope. You know, it was really hard. And that's one of the reasons I became so involved with reading and researching about our brains and child development and what screens and technology are, what kind of effect they're having. And so this, it's been a shift culturally for our family. Most of our kids are adults now, but we still, we all actually all live in the same town. So we get together just about every week for Sunday dinner with my grandkids. And we really have shifted towards less screen time like we used to. I mean, I, my kids used to be sitting, you know, we'd be sitting at family dinner and they'd be sitting on their phones while they're around.

Kathleen Barlow: (33:01)

They just don't do that anymore. 'cause we've really, I've, well, I've, I've just really tried to help them realize that that's not cool. People come first, right? Mm-hmm . People come first before screens. So, but I, I've been kind of on this journey myself, my, my girls who were, are, you know, still a continuous struggle to some extent. Were still having their iPhones, you know, and I would think sometimes I really, I need to get those away, away from them. But how can I, it's too late, you know? And finally, about a year ago, I thought, I, with everything that I know, I am not going to keep supplying that drug. I just can't because it really is like a drug, you know? So we, I feel you, we stepped down to Pinwheel phones about a year ago, and if I were to ask them right now, they would still say, mom, it hasn't helped that much.

Kathleen Barlow: (33:48)

And they are still not thrilled that they, that's what they have. But that's part of the whole process that our kids need to realize. Everything is not easy. They're not entitled to everything. They, and they can do hard things. Mm-hmm . And so they have struggled with this, um, with this dumb phone, simple phone, right? For, for almost, it's been a, just about a year. It was February, last February that we made the Switch. And I actually have another blog post coming out about what parents can do to try to roll back. Because you can't just decide one day I'm gonna do this. Because honestly, there have been teenagers who have taken their own lives after their phones have been taken away. It is a very serious issue and needs to be taken very seriously. And there needs to be some planning done. And really a lot of thought. 

Hillary Wilkinson

It speaks to, it speaks to the level of addiction.

Kathleen Barlow: (34:39)

It does. It's true addiction. Yeah, it does. It does. I mean, if you think about, like, would that happen with anything else taking away, you know, it's, it is, it's this addictive device that has become so ingrained in our, in our culture. Um, and so anyways, it hasn't been perfect. And the Pinwheel phones certainly aren't perfect. They mess up a lot of things. They mess up our family group chat. They can't send, you know, videos and, and, and, and so it's not convenient, but that's okay because they are learning how to problem solve. They have gained a number of skills over this past year that I don't think they would have gained had they still been on their iPhones. I honestly believe that. And so they're really heading in a good direction. And I really think it's important for parents to know that it's not too late.

Kathleen Barlow: (35:28)

It's not, we shouldn't be just giving up, throwing our hands in the air. I don't know if Jonathan Haidt who wrote The Anxious Generation, I don't know if you've heard him say this, but it was so funny, I heard him say recently, you know, we people talk about like, the train has left the station. He said, “I don't know about you guys, but if my kids were on a runaway train, that I would try to go help them. I'm not just gonna say, oh, well, the train's left the station.” You know, which I think is kind of this message that's being, um, put out. You know, that's too late. It's too late, but it's not too late. I feel like it's never too late, because they're gonna be adults too, these kids. And they're still gonna be suffering with these same addictive tendencies, unless we really try our best to, to, to roll it back as much as we can.

Hillary Wilkinson: (36:09)

Right. So we have to take a short break. But when we come back, I'm going to ask Kathleen Barlow for her healthy screen habit.

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Ad Break:  HSH Workbook

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I'm speaking with Kathleen Barlow, founder of the organization Swimming Up Screen, whose mission is to help individuals, families, schools, and communities to intentionally spend more time unplugging in order to connect. They believe that moving up screen and reducing screen time can reduce and even eliminate some of the negative to effects of toxic tech overuse in our lives. So Kathleen, on every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask my guests for a healthy screen habit. This is gonna be a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice in their own home. What's yours?

Kathleen Barlow: (37:05)

Okay. Well, I do have two. I have one for parents and one for kids. Because I feel like it needs to start with us as parents, and we need to acknowledge that it is a problem for a lot of us as well. My one for parents is that, to try to just find times to separate yourself from your phone. I think many of, so many of us are just so used to carrying around our phones in our pockets with us everywhere. And I think it's very freeing and good for us to spend time. And as, as you do this more and more, you can spend longer amounts of time and it's going to feel magnificent, I can tell you to just not have it on your body all the time. And in fact, my, my twins, because they don't have a smartphone, they often will ask me to look, if they need to look up something on Safari, they'll ask me for my phone, which I'm fine to let them use it, you know? But a lot of times they'll say, “where's your phone mom?” And I'll say, I don't know. And I like that. I like being able to say, I don't know where it is. So, but for kids, number one, if I could give parents one tip is to start with getting phones outta the bedrooms.

Hillary Wilkinson: (38:02)

Absolutely.

Kathleen Barlow: (38:02)

That is going to help with so many other things, especially their sleep, which is so important. So

Hillary Wilkinson: (38:08)

It's one of our Core Five habits.

Kathleen Barlow: (38:10)

Is it? Oh, good. I didn't, I didn't know that. Okay. That's awesome. But it makes sense. Yep. Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (38:14)

Yeah. As always, you can find a complete transcript of this show, as well as a link to Swimming Up Screen and that new fun journal, 52 Screen Free Experiences for Families by visiting the show notes for this episode. You do that, that by going to healthy screen habits.org. Click the podcast button and find this episode. Kathleen, thank you so much for being here. I know this episode is a little bit longer than most, but I hope everybody's hung in there because it's been so much fun to hear all of your ideas, your enthusiasm, and just the adventures that you've been on on your path in parenting. Oh,

Kathleen Barlow: (38:58)

Thank you so much, Hillary. It was a pleasure talking to you.