"…start early and stay mindful."

~ Michael Davis

Overcoming a challenging childhood in the South, Michael was inspired by a transformative teacher to unlock his potential. He served 22 years in the U.S. Navy, developing advanced cybersecurity algorithms. With over 25 years of cybersecurity experience, Michael is now a Ph.D. candidate in Cyberpsychology at Capitol Tech University. He created MindfulBytes.io, a groundbreaking K-5 curriculum enhancing digital well-being. The program boasts an 85.7% student engagement rate and a 40% reduction in cyberbullying incidents. His mission is to safeguard the digital well-being of the youngest generation, ensuring every child can thrive in our increasingly digital world.

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

For more info: MindfulBytes.io

Show Transcript

Hillary Wilkinson: (00:02)

So often when we hear about cybersecurity, we put our thinking in defense mode, you know, how to protect and safeguard our identities or information. And none of these things is anything that I associate with the term mindfulness, which is why when I heard about my guest today, I really wanted to know more. With over 25 years of cybersecurity experience, including 22 years in the US Navy, he developed cybersecurity algorithms for Los Alamos and the Pentagon. Using all of this knowledge, he founded the cybersecurity firm Merrick Security Systems. And the way I understand it had a moment of clarity while on stage giving a TED Talk that changed the way he thought about digital citizenship. I'm gonna let him tell that story, but welcome to Healthy Screen Habits, Michael Davis.

Michael Davis: (01:08)

Thank you, Hillary. It's an honor to be here. I really appreciate the, uh, the access to your world and your audience, and I'm a fan of course. And I'm so happy to be here. So, thank you, .

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:19)

Thank you. So, I, I, I really, I, I kind of want you to break this down for us. Okay? Yeah, no worries. You're, I mean, I, the, the one I saw you were on the TEDx Albuquerque stage, giving a talk on cyber happiness. And digital citizenship. Yes. And what happened?

Michael Davis: (01:41)

Oh my gosh. I, do you have another hour for this podcast? , uh, . So, there was a moment of clarity that I experienced, and this was after, as you have have expressed, my 22 years in the Navy, I've worked in corporate, uh, Boeing, and Los Alamos. And I had a whole lot of work that was, uh, you know, on my resume, so to speak, around cybersecurity. But in this moment around, uh, and I had been obviously asked and very, you know, the, the humility and the gratitude to be on a TEDx stage, uh, is there's no, there are no words. So it was a beautiful expression to be asked. And then, of course, the rehearsing and all the things. Um, so it wasn't just like an overnight success in that regard. But after, uh, everything was sort of on in place and we're in backstage, and I'm up next, of course, there were like 14 speakers.

Michael Davis: (02:28)

And, um, I remember midway through the talk. I had this almost out-of-body experience. Now, this is a, like an eight-minute talk, so I'm not talking like, you know, 20 minutes, but I, around a four-minute mark or so. There was a moment where I looked in the audience and I could not see the audience. I couldn't see the, who I was speaking to. And I felt, I felt alone for, for like a split second. And then I realized, oh, no, Mike, you're just speaking to the wrong audience. It became that clear to me. It didn't mean, it didn't mean that the parents and the teachers and the, the adults in the audience didn't count, but the real audience were kids and this mindfulness as a service, this cyber happiness talk. Um, out of that weird moment, I, I finished the talk, obviously, but I left the stage and, and, and, and immediately went back to my drawing board in my head and said, I need to take what I just said for about eight minutes or so, and develop a curriculum that speaks to kids in this space who are learning about technology.

Michael Davis: (03:32)

The, the typical 6-year-old who's getting dad's old iPad or mom's old iPhone or whatever that, whatever they're getting handed. Um, let's teach them cyber ethics. Let's teach them what does it feel like to be in this kind of technology space, um, without any directions other than press this button and click there, and then you're dooms scrolling for two hours later. Mm-hmm. So it wasn't a moment of, um, it wasn't a moment of of, of sort of this, uh, space of, I don't know what to do next. It was, it was the most clear moment of what to do next.

Hillary Wilkinson: (04:08)

It sounds almost like spiritual, to be honest with you. It, it feels, it has that like yeah. That, that energy about it, you know,

Michael Davis: (04:17)

100% Hillary, I, I did not think of it that way in that moment, but looking back now and hearing you say that, that's exactly what it was. Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (04:25)

That's powerful

Michael Davis: (04:26)

On this earth to kind of provide a purpose. And in that moment, I think I was, I, I was gently nudged, gently nudged, that purpose space and, uh, Mindfulbytes.io, uh, grew from that experience.

Hillary Wilkinson: (04:38)

I love it. Okay. So now you've created Mindfulbytes.io. Yes. By kind of integrating, as I understand it, and I mean, feel free to correct me for sure, but cybersecurity education with mindfulness practices, and I'm having, like, I, maybe my brain's too small. I, what does this look like? I don't . I am, I'm having a hard time visualizing - it's a K-5 curriculum. Correct. And I, I don't, can you maybe take me through a lesson? 

Michael Davis: (05:12)

 Of course. Absolutely. 

Hillary Wilkinson: (05:13)

Talk me through what does it look like and how it gets employed? Yeah.

Michael Davis: (05:18)

So the, the sort of thesis question that we ask kids, and this was the question I asked myself even on stage, is what is the space in between me and the device? And this interesting question around what is the space in between me and the device opens up a different kind of, uh, response. Meaning like, am I scrolling? Is it me that's scrolling, or is it my, is it my anxiety that's scrolling? Is it me that wants to go and learn how to, um, bake a cake on YouTube and now I'm looking at dog videos for three hours? Like, what part of that is me? And I think that, that, that sort of inquiry that we're asking young kids who, in this case K-5, a lot of these kids are not even on, not even on social media or not even on devices, but we're asking the question of like, what do you notice how you feel?

Michael Davis: (06:05)

It sounds very therapeutic, but it really is asking the kind of user, which is what we are is digital users. What is the space in between me and the device? How do I determine if that's me that's struggling, or me that's scrolling or me that's happy? Like what does that emotion look like? Mm-hmm . And so, most of the lessons that kids are getting earlier on around technology is focused on this hacking and getting into like, systems and all the things.

Michael Davis: (06:51)

And those things are valid too, but we need to also think about the human part of that too. Like, who am I right now? The reason I started this company wasn't 'cause I was bored. I felt compelled. 'cause I didn't know who I was in the technology space. But all that, those years of experience, I didn't know who I was. I was just using Instagram like everyone else. I was alarm clock in the morning to Instagram, and I would be in my bed and an hour later on looking at videos at the morning. Um, but these kids, they have no idea what they themselves are into. They're just handed a device. And most parents, and most people, uh, within the school system don't have their bandwidth or their energy to do this sort of deep dive.

Michael Davis: (07:36)

So this curriculum was built from a pain point for that level of work that needs to be, uh, discussed more often with kids earlier. Mm-hmm . Um, many of these programs that open up psychology of technology don't talk about that, that space in between, because they're just not as a space. I think the, I think the investment isn't there yet. The investment is in the adolescent space and maybe the teenager space. 'cause we're seeing a lot more statistics there around suicidal ideations and cyber bullying and online things like that. But how do we get to the before picture, the sub thought, the self-thought, the thought before the thought.

Hillary Wilkinson: (09:11)

Okay. Okay. So I, I guess I'm, I guess I'm unclear, like Sure. How, how do you approach that with Exactly. I'm in, I'm in classrooms all the time. Okay. Right. I mean, I, I'm a teacher. I, um, I substitute teach currently, but, um, I've had my own classrooms. I understand this wanting to explore what's the driver behind you being online? I, I understand all of that. Right. But how, how do you build that foundation?

Michael Davis: (09:50)

So right now, we're a pilot obviously. 'cause we were like two years into this curriculum. Um, there's no technology. We don't introduce technology to kids. This is a technology-less curriculum. So I come in for about a week, wait for about an hour or so, uh, with these schools. Right now, we have three schools in our pilot program. And we, talk with kids. We actually have these exercises. For example, we talk about social media, uh, by using the telephone game, the telephone game. We all know that game. Whether one kid whispers a thing and it goes around the room, and by the time, by the time it gets to the 18th or 19th kid, nine outta 10 times the, the, the, the thing has changed. Right? But we use that as an example to describe the noise of social media, the noise of texting, the noise of interacting with someone else online.

Michael Davis: (10:36)

And once we have kids in this set, in this particular scenario, whisper the thing that needs to be said, but every other kid is loud and distracting and yelling and jumping around, I'm also playing a role in that space as well. And so, by the time it gets to the end, naturally there's, it's distorted. But that's one lesson plan that we talk about in terms of how do we access better relationships online, well, let's just go to the person directly versus trying to sift through the noise of the internet. Why not go to the person directly? And that's just one lesson when we teach kids. But like, there's a problem with someone's post. Someone posts something about, I hate apples. You don't like that? Maybe go to the person directly, because you can avoid all that noise. It can be a direct communication space. So it doesn't necessarily, uh, deter kids from using this technology or makes 'em feel anxious. It just gives 'em awareness of how much power they have to be more clear, more concise, and have agency over their, their, their language in that space. Yeah. And that's just one example of how we use telephone game to do that.

Hillary Wilkinson: (11:33)

Thank you for that example. I do better in concrete. So I know, I, like I said, I, I'm an elementary educator, so I, I like, oh, telephone game. I know what that looks like. In this space of digital wellness, we kind of get often get into this debate of digital citizenship versus digital literacy. Right? And it seems like MindfulBytes.io is, am I correct in understanding it's more of a digital citizenship chapter.

Michael Davis: (12:10)

It's more of the, it, it, it doesn't lean towards that. I wanna be clear. It's not entirely citizenship, but as it is, as it is more about stewardship. Like, how do I have stewardship over my own body uhhuh versus coming in and knowing a thing or two about technology? Okay. I know my body more the spidey senses that that instinct

Hillary Wilkinson: (12:32)

Thank you. Right? It's so important because that's. You know, when we talk about relationships, it's so hard to remember our biggest relationship is with ourself. And that's where tech is fracturing so many parts. So teaching that just the mind-body awareness. I, yeah. I, I get it Michael.

Michael Davis: (12:51)

That's, that's, that's it. It

Hillary Wilkinson: (12:54)

Took me a minute, but I got it. Finally!

Michael Davis: (12:57)

Believe me, we're still evolving in the language still evolving in this concept. And it's still, to this day, two years later, I'm still figuring out, oh, that is, let me tweak this, let make this doesn't make sense. Oh. Uh, ideally that's just a lifelong learner kind of mindset anyway, too. But ideally, no, that's what we're asking kids, is to identify what's in your body. Is it you have feelings in your stomach before you get onto whatever? Uh, we also teach, oh, go ahead.

Hillary Wilkinson: (13:21)

Oh, I was gonna say, and to that point, if you weren't somebody who was so dialed in and connected with your self-experience, you may not have been open to receiving that “aha moment” on the TEDx stage. So that absolutely illustrates why this type of connection to self, to reading the room, so to speak, why that's so important.

Michael Davis: (13:46)

There's so much coming at us, at any, any given point in time, and we, and I, and it, it asks a real, real strong question to slow down and breathe. Mm-hmm . What if I just breathe before I log on? Yeah. What if I just actually step back and maybe take a walk around the office or around my, whatever I am before I check this email? There's a reason why we send an email or we type an email out and it's just feeling anxiety. We put it into the drafts folder for a day or two. Let, let, let me get out of that anxiety feeling. 'cause in that space between me and the email is anxiety. Yeah. I don't call it that, but that's what it is. Mm-hmm . But if I didn't, if I didn't pause enough or just sit down in my body to assess that, I would just send the email out. And I would have a lot more chaos on the back end of that. Yeah. And so, uh, you know, we're seeing in our curriculum that kids are, are more open to, just sitting down and asking, how am I feeling about this? Mm-hmm

Hillary Wilkinson: (14:45)

Okay.

Michael Davis: (14:46)

Before I do it.

Hillary Wilkinson: (14:47)

Yeah. So I see on your team, there's yourself, you've got a chief, a chief people officer, and a researcher who is interested in the emerging field of cyber psychology, which we're gonna cover that later. 'cause I'm, my brain is spinning on that. But, um, who wrote the curriculum for your program?

Michael Davis: (15:08)

Mostly, uh, myself and a researcher, she did a lot of the initial kind of push, and I sort of brought it up to, to level of, uh, publishing. And so we're still, um, designing an element for I, 'cause obviously every every grade level, it's K-5, every grade level has a different tinge and language around that. Sure. So I wrote the curriculum mostly, uh, I didn't tell you this earlier, but I'm also a PhD student in cyber psychology. So this is actually part of my grand, sort of dissertation space, uh, around MinfulBytes and the K thru five sort of early childhood education space. Awesome. So, um, but I wrote the curriculum and we are still designing and repurposing some of the language around what it is currently.

Hillary Wilkinson: (15:51)

Okay, got you. So, um, I just, my background, like I said, is in education and developmentally appropriate practice. So I was just wondering where you get your kind of like, for developmentally appropriate practices where…

Michael Davis: (16:07)

 Oh my gosh. I, I, I, I have a lot of friends with teachers, , a lot of friends who are administrators, uh, who, who have, who. I've just thrown this to them and, you know, and they've given me lots of feedback. So I, and in full disclosure, I'm not a teacher. I'm not, I've never been in the classroom, so to speak, uh, as more, uh, as teachers have, have certified me like that, I'm, I'm really the, I'm kind of like the crazy Uncle Patch Adams meets cybersecurity guy. He comes in and talks about these type of, type of, uh, emotional, social, emotional, uh, triggers. But, uh, I'm, I'm really fortunate to have worked with Project Zero at Harvard on some of this work, and a lot of researchers in this space, they're smarter than me and have a lot more weight on the table, have helped me design some of the language around the curriculum as well. I shouldn't say, I wrote the curriculum. I've been a steward of the curriculum, uh, for this time. And I've been able to be, be very fortunate to have people around me who, who've assisted in this space with me.

Hillary Wilkinson: (17:03)

When we come back, let's talk more about the challenges that kids are facing with tech and how Mindfulbytes.io can help them build that resilience and responsibility.

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I'm speaking with Michael Davis from Mindfulbytes.io, an organization that empowers children to become responsible, resilient, and mindful digital citizens by integrating cybersecurity education with mindfulness practices. So these are all super important, wonderful things. What I'm wondering, what I mentioned before the break, can you explain what the field of cyber psychology is? Yeah. I've never heard that term before.

Michael Davis: (18:36)

Yeah. No. It's something that's kind of nuanced. It's been around for a few years. I wanna say like the last 10 years it's been sort of thrown out to some, uh, a book here, a book there. Um, but just for the record, cybersecurity, in my years of working in this space has always been psychological. There's always been a hacker versus a fill in the blank psychological profile. There's always been, how do I get into this access point using this person's wellness? If they're tired that day, if they're hungry that day, how do I get through that?

Hillary Wilkinson: (19:02)

Totally makes sense.

Michael Davis: (19:03)

Social engineering, so it's not nuanced in that way, like we're just calling it cyber psychology, but it really is, uh, has been around for a long time in terms of cybersecurity,  best practices. But the term itself, cyber psychology, um, essentially a study of how, uh, technology influences both our emotions and, uh, our decision making while using devices, uh, such as the internet or things like that. I mean, perfect example is doom scrolling. That's a real thing that we all suffer. Even professional people like me, um, there's a reason why that's happening. Um, and there's also like, have, you know, screen time. The, the kind of meltdown that we see kids are experiencing now, uh, where I want more hour or else I'm gonna have a screaming match, or I'm gonna hurt myself. Those, that level of anxiety shows up in there. That's a sort of a cyber, psychological, uh, space.

Michael Davis: (19:54)

Um, you know, anxious check notifications. I mean, no one likes to get the text that says, Can we talk? And no context. You're just like, oh, what, what did I do? So you're automatically in this trigger space. So cyber psychology is no different than food psychology or financial psychology around money. Um, we have yet to really expand and contrast this language around devices and companies that you, that put out products. Because if you didn't notice, uh, the, the opposite side of cyber psychology is used to attract you, uh, from big companies. And so there's a reason why colors are used on your screen. If you ever, on another example, if you ever take your phone and just gray scale your phone out, see how you respond to that in a day. Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (20:40)

Yeah.

Michael Davis: (20:40)

See, it can be time to check your phone, see how many times to look at your phone. Chances are you, you won't check as much. 'cause those vibrant colors are not gonna pop up after you asking to be pressed. Um, so these are sort of examples. I remember when I, uh, when I was sort of looking at this, this as a, as a, uh, as an education space. I was assistant engineering PhD program before. So I switched over, uh, and to this program. 'cause I felt it was more compelling. But I remember looking at my phone one day and I was looking at something online. I was just kind of scrolling through whatever. And I looked up at the sky, I looked up around me, and the thing that was in front of me, which is real world, like wherever I was that day, was blurry. I looked down at my phone, it was clear, and I was like, wow.

Hillary Wilkinson: (21:26)

Wow.

Michael Davis: (21:27)

That's where this, so that's what this work entails, is it's like the thing that's in my phone was at this moment was more interesting than what was happening at, in, in real life, Uhhuh. And so I realized in that moment, this work is important, not just for me, but for kids and parents and educators. So,

Hillary Wilkinson: (21:43)

One of the things that, like as I visited your website and looked around, I, it, and it really impressed me about your program Yes. Was the focus on continued education for teachers and the recognition of the importance of the student-teacher connection, the relationship there. Yeah. Um, so as we all know, AI is growing in leaps and bounds. Yes. Like every day. And there are schools that are emerging that are going teacher-free. And I'm talking specifically about the Alpha school in Texas. Yes. That relies completely on AI for instruction. and adults at this school, adults at this school, are called guides. And they're actually not, they're, it goes beyond not being encouraged to instruct. They are not allowed to instruct, but they steer kids to search for answers and instruction online. And I, I have big thoughts about this , but I, I recognize my bias. Okay. I completely recognize my bias. So I thought, Ooh, you are exactly the person I wanna talk to about this as this expert on the merging between online life and mindfulness. Like, what, what do you think about replacing human teachers with AI? What, how does that land for you?

Michael Davis: (23:12)

Oh my God, this is a juicy question. Hillary. I, uh, lemme think about this question. I have mixed feelings about this. Um, um, 'cause obviously AI has incredible potential to educate and kind of bring us to a new frontier, how we learn. Um, but my concern is really the replacement of human teachers in general. I think there's, it's a very slippery slope. I don't want to lose. And part of our curriculum is focused on human-centric approach to cybersecurity. And so there needs to be, I think, I think the risks are in many ways, um, kids learn through relationships. They learn through empathy, they learn through social cues. And, uh, I see it in the classroom with me. There's a, a really deeper eye contact. I get to kind of be crazy. I'm, and I get to actually, you know, be a human in front of these kids.

Michael Davis: (24:02)

And AI can't replicate that. I don't know if that's actually even a conversation we should be having right now, . But the emotional intelligence and sort of, sort of the critical thinking can't be developed by an algorithm in this way alone. I think there's some factors that we can talk about around where that does play a role, but not alone. And I get that these teachers are called guides. But my, wow. I think it's, I, I think, I think this is a slippery slope here, because it can become an overreliance on the AI to do the thing that humans have been doing for centuries. And maybe there's some space around creativity and, and problem solving that that, that an AI can help a student sort of overcome. But there needs to be some, there needs to be a better relationship with the human involved versus kind of over, uh, extending to the AI technology space around kids development.

Hillary Wilkinson: (24:53)

Um, yeah. Yeah. My concern leads back to, I mean, not to, I, I don't mean to hijack this, but No, no, no, no. We're just my, yeah. My concern is around like, empathy building. You know, we already are very aware that there's an empathy gap that has emerged over the years. Right. And I, I don't know how AI would be able to teach that. I feel like it's, I don't know. I have so many concerns. 'cause I also get into this like, you know, the whole hive mind type thing. Like, is there, is it truly creative? Is it not? I don't know. I have a limited understanding of what generative AI can, can, uh, can do. Yeah. So I,

Michael Davis: (25:48)

Yeah. I think, I think the, the thesis is really is are we, are we placing AI as the pilot or the co-pilot mm-hmm . I think if we could really define what those, what those boundaries are, then that might be a, a sort of a safer space for this AI injection to the classroom. But teachers, undoubtedly, teachers are irreplaceable. I don't, I don't say that lightly. I, no technology can replace an actual human who has the kind of feeling space and the empathy space, as you mentioned, to connect with the students learning, uh, development space.

Hillary Wilkinson: (26:20)

Right. Well, you, I, I feel like I remember reading, you had a transformational relationship with a teacher in your younger years. I did. Didn't you? This is,

Michael Davis: (26:29)

This is exactly why I bring this up because my company's name is Merrick, uh, for a very specific reason. Uh, my eighth grade math teacher, Mr. Sharon Merck, uh, sat me down at 13 and was like, “Hey, you're screwing up and you know, you're gonna, I can, I can see you hiding in my class.” And she didn't say it in a way that that was profound. But some reason that day, I was completely in the receptive stage of my life to receive that message from her. And so when I started this company a hundred years later, I didn't have a name, obviously. And I thought about that moment when I was 13. And, and I, I wanna be clear, I was hiding on purpose. I didn't wanna be too smart. I didn't be too kind of in the back. I wanted to be kind of in the middle, kind of class clown status.

Michael Davis: (27:15)

And she did not accept that one bit. She was my math teacher that I had to pass. So I couldn't just like, fake it till you make it. And so that moment became a defining moment for me at 13. So Merrick and Merck obviously became a very common name in the domain space. And Merrick, I just switched letters around me, it merit, and that became the story. So I, I have a vested interest in this education space Sure. And having a teacher, and I don't think an AI, you know, could have done that at that moment. I don't think an AI laptop on a, you know, AI program or whatever that looks like, uh, with me being sort of hanging out with guides all day, I don't think I, I don't think that would've happened that way. Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (27:56)

I love that story. Thank you so much for sharing that story. Thank you. I hope, I hope is, is she, is she aware that that's how you got the name for your company

Michael Davis: (28:05)

In 2018  I, I literally went back to, uh, when I started this company, uh, I went back to that middle school website and, and she was on there. So I sent her a note, a video note of this same story, and said, you don't remember, you may not remember me, but, uh, and she wrote me back. She says, “Actually, I do remember you.” Which is crazy. 'cause, you know, 50 years of teaching. Uh, and that was her last year teaching. She retired that same year. 

Hillary Wilkinson: (28:29)

Wow.

Michael Davis: (28:30)

So it was a treat. It was a treat, yeah. To be a part of that journey with her. And obviously she didn't know that story, and she didn't know the impact. And honestly, had I not really opened up to this company's journey, I would've probably found that story some other part of my life. But it opened up in that way for me. 

Hillary Wilkinson: (29:10)

Yeah. So we have to take a short break, but when we come back, I'm going to ask Michael Davis for his healthy screen habit. 

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Hillary Wilkinson: (30:46)

I'm speaking with Michael Davis, founder of MindfulBytes.io. An organization that strives to help create a digitally responsible generation of children, recognizing that tech is a tool for empowerment, connection, and positive change. So, Michael, on every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask for a healthy screen habit. And this is gonna be a tip or takeaway. That listeners can put into practice in their own homes. Yes. What's yours?

Michael Davis: (31:30)

Oh my goodness. Um, I think for us and for this program and for, uh, our curriculum and work we're doing behind this work, um, the advice I have is start early and stay mindful. Um, we must focus on early intervention. And I know it sounds silly, but asking quick kids abstract questions around their feelings actually opens up a different conversation than maybe you don't know, uh, even exists. And so it's not about online behavior, it's not about Stu uh, literacy. It's about finding a voice that they can speak to and have agency over their, over their digital usage. And so I think when we can get to the point where, um, technology doesn't scare us, we can own part of that and actually have fun with it and have agency over that. So I think our advice is really start early, and stay mindful in this space, because I, technology's not going anywhere. And as we've discussed in this call, AI's not going anywhere either. But ideally, if you start early and get an early intervention space, um, and a healthy space, it doesn't make it weird. It makes it exciting. And it's a very common, you know, experience. We all get to share in this world, and our youngest users are their most vulnerable. So let's start early.

Hillary Wilkinson: (32:46)

Great. As always, you can find a complete transcript of this show as well as a link to Mindfulbytes.io. You do this by going to the Healthy Screen Habits website, and click the podcast button to find this episode. Michael, thank you so much for being here today and for all your work in the world to build resilience and digital wellness, and yes, awareness and health, all of the things.

Michael Davis: (33:14)

Thanks Hillary. It's been an honor to be here. I'm, I'm a fan of yours, so thank you so much for having me on here. This has been a, this has been a real treat! Appreciate you.