"Gaming platforms are grooming havens for criminals, (gamers) may play with your children for two months before they set the hook."

~ Sam Chapman

Sam Chapman is the father of Sammy Chapman (forever 16) and CEO of The Parent Collective Inc., a California non-profit operating in the areas of social media harm and fentanyl poisoning education and activism. The Parent Collective also provides grief support for those left behind.

Sammy Chapman died the night he took a counterfeit pill that was laced with fentanyl.  He bought this pill on Snapchat.  More and more drug dealers are using Snapchat as their preferred platform to sell. The conversation has never been more critical - talk to your kids about only using medication prescribed by their own doctor and purchased from a licensed pharmacy.

This episode should be heard by all teens, young adults, and parents - it could save lives.

Healthy Screen Habits Takeaway

Resources

For More Info:

Parent Collective: website, facebook

Resources Mentioned:

SB-976 Protecting Our Kids from Social Media Addiction Act

SB-918 - Firearms

Sammy’s Law

Bark: (Use code HSHabits to get money off)

Bright canary

Show Transcript

Hillary Wiilkinson: (00:00)

Today's episode talks about the use of drugs and unintentional overdose. If you have small children, or is someone who is sensitive to this topic, you may want to consider listening at a different time or using AirPods. These are really important conversations that deserve intention and time when you want to address them with your family. In the spring of 2021, Sam Chapman and his wife relationship therapist and author Dr. Laura Berman, made the incredibly courageous decision to open their hearts and share the murder of their son, Sammy. Sammy Chapman was 16 when he died by fentanyl poisoning via Snapchat with a counterfeit drug. Thank you so much for taking the time to be here today, and welcome to Healthy Screen Habits, Sam Chapman.

Sam Chapman: (01:17)

Thank you for having me,

Hillary Wiilkinson: (01:19)

Sam. I have learned so much from the tireless work that your family has done with exposing the dangers and the negligence of Snapchat through your media coverage, as well as the nonprofit that you established, Parent Collective Incorporated. And you do this all to educate and support others. I firmly believe that education saves lives, and really thank you for all that you do. I wish we were not having this conversation today. That being said, I think it's important to remember who, who was, who was lost, and are you up for sharing a little bit about your son, Sammy?

Sam Chapman: (02:10)

Sure. Sammy was 16 when he died. Um, he was a high school student, uh, football player. Uh, a big bruiser of a boy, um, loving, intelligent, uh, his plan was to become the world's first trillionaire. Um, he was mining Bitcoin in his closet. Uh, he started out not in the closet, if you will, and our, uh, electricity bill went way up and, um, we figured out what was going on, and so he moved it into the closet. Um, he ran a biosphere in his bedroom, um, uh, after he passed, cleaning that sucker out was a terrible task. Um, and, uh, he was much loved.

Hillary Wiilkinson: (03:06)

Yeah. Yeah. Um, I, I like that you talk about all of his science background and his tech background, because he's not somebody that was unfamiliar with science or technology. And so it's, I think it's important, this is to just illustrate to families that this is not happening to kids who don't have a baseline understanding of what's out there. Or a basic understanding of science, I should say. Um,

Sam Chapman: (03:43)

Quite the opposite. They are the digital natives, and we are the ones who are ignorant usually. And that's part of the problem. And the other part of the problem is the, the design of the platforms and how some of them are meant so that parents cannot parent online.

Hillary Wiilkinson: (04:01)

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And you and your wife have been so open with sharing your story about the night of Sammy's death. Are you up for briefly talking about it?

Sam Chapman: (04:14)

About? Sure. So, um, we, it was Super Bowl Sunday, and it was during lockdown and during the pandemic. And so we thought that the one thing that was good about the pandemic was that we were sure our children were safe in the safest place in the world, which was our home. But we did not understand the perils of Snapchat. We thought all we had to worry about was nudity pics. And, um, we did speak to our children about that. But, uh, drug dealer reached out to our son through the quick ad feature, which allows them to network among the friends, if you will, of your children and your children's friends on Snapchat. And that's how they find the kids, is they, they get one kid to establish a link, and then if that kid has their quick ad feature turned on, they're able to network throughout the kids' friends and their school.

Sam Chapman: (05:20)

And, uh, so, um, that's what happened to us. They offered Sammy something for free at the bottom. It said, uh, Mr. Dan, 2, 4, 8, I deliver. And a lethal dose of Fentanyl was delivered to our house, like a pizza after we were asleep. He didn't have to leave the front yard to get the dose that killed him, and it was in, uh, counterfeit drug. So he was not intentionally taking fentanyl. And that is how most of the deaths happen. The cartels, uh, are using, um, pill molds for, uh, drugs that people will buy online, uh, to get high, like, uh, Percocet. And they are also, um, forming them into any drugs there's a shortage of, in the United States, so, uh, expensive cancer drugs are being infused with, um, fentanyl and, uh, Adderall, for instance. 'cause there's been a big Adderall shortage. So if you get these things online, uh, it's very likely that there's gonna be fentanyl in them.

Sam Chapman: (06:29)

Uh, the DEA says 60% of the pills sold online have fentanyl. So, uh, he gets this counterfeit dose, takes it, he dies. And our youngest son finds him dead on the floor with vomit coming out of his mouth. This is what happens. It's called the Fentanyl Death Pose or at least that's what I call it. Uh, fentanyl reduces respiration, uh, to the point where they pass out and, um, throw up, and they either die from not breathing or they, uh, aspirate the vomit and that blocks their throat and they die choking. And so, um, uh, I tried to resuscitate him, uh, while my wife called 9 1 1. Uh, we did not succeed. The firemen and the EMT showed up, and they worked on him for 45 minutes and did not succeed. And, um, then the police came and the coroners came. And so we told the police, let's call Snapchat and Snap Inc. and find out what's in this profile and get this dealer.

Sam Chapman: (07:46)

This was in Santa Monica, California, by the way. The, um, headquarters of Snap Inc. Is in Santa Monica. And the police there said that Snap Inc doesn't return their phone calls and they won't help with even a murder of a child who got the drug on their platform. They were, in fact, we found out later, um, letting drug dealers know when law enforcement was inquiring about their profile, they felt their obligation to their user was their primary responsibility not to society or to the other user who had been harmed. that's sort of, uh, part of a later story where I did get to speak to the CEO of Snap Inc. Evan Spiegel, you know, there's such a thing as third party safety software, which will give a parent a warning, right? Um, companies like Bark or Bright Canary, and if that had been integrated into Snapchat, Sammy would still be alive.

Sam Chapman: (08:58)

And he said he would not do that because they protect their data and they use their data for targeted advertising. That's how they make their money. Uh, it allows them to, uh, tell an advertiser exactly who they're advertising to. And so they waste less money with a scattershot ad and they can target, you know, a Barbie to a girl or a soldier to a boy, or whatever gender script you wanna make up as, as a product advertiser. That wound up becoming important because our conversation proved that he knew yes, kids were dying on his platform and did not change behavior. So we were contacted by friends who said, let's sue these people. We're part of a lawsuit. We're gonna sue. Uh, we said, you know, there's a lot of responsibility to go around. We're not people who sue, and we think it, it generates a lot of, uh, anguish for the people who are suing, and we've got enough anguish that we're dealing with.

Sam Chapman: (10:09)

But then the, uh, social media victims law firm decided that that phone call and the subsequent emails were important evidence and that we were gonna be called as witnesses. So, uh, we decided to join the suit. If we're gonna be called into court and discuss it anyway, and have the anguish, we might as well, um, also be part of the suit. I, by trade, I'm also a publicist. And, um, every step that we've taken, I have used as a reason to go on radio or television or podcasts like yours and warn other parents. Mm-hmm . And so, um, we were able to get a lot of publicity for our lawsuit, uh, 65 parents from around the country who all lost children to Snapchat, to Fentanyl poisoning via Snapchat and, uh, in California Superior Court. And, uh, Snapchat, uh, tried to dismiss the case, and Judge Rif uh, said that we need a trial just to see what Snapchat is.

Sam Chapman: (11:18)

I don't know, under law, if it's a product, if it's a service, if it's a, uh, online, um, social media platform, uh, I don't even know where to classify it. We have to hear on that. Um, we took a product liability approach so that we wouldn't fly in the face of free speech. Okay. Defective product, a failure to warn, um, negligence in addicting our children to the platform, and any harm that came from that. And, and eight other allegations that all survived the motion to dismiss, giving us the broadest palate of discovery anyone's ever had against a major social media platform. Mm-hmm . They ask the judge for permission to appeal it to a higher authority because of First Amendment issues. And usually that's not allowed because the appeals court likes a complete record before they take a case. So they make them go all the way to the end. But because First Amendment is such a strong, uh, principle in American jurisprudence, that judge allowed the appeal. And we have been sitting and waiting for eight months now for the appeals court to do something while children are dying.

Hillary Wiilkinson: (12:36)

Die. Yes. Yes.

Sam Chapman: (12:39)

So, so that's, um, uh, you know, we've decided to do something about this, and we're trying to get third party safety software put on all platforms with children. Uh, we have a law that we've tried to put through in California and Illinois, um, and in Congress.

Hillary Wiilkinson: (13:00)

Okay. And I, I wanna talk more about that law, but first we have to take a little break. 

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Ad Break: 988 - Suicide and Crisis Lifeline
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Hillary Wilkinson:

I'm speaking with Sam Chapman, dad of two and CEO of Parent Collective Incorporated, a California nonprofit organization operating in the areas of social media harm, fentanyl poisoning education and activism. You also provide grief support for those left behind. I have heard you say in other interviews that if fentanyl is the bullet that is killing our teens, social media is the gun. And can you expand upon why social media A. is this critical piece? And before the break, you started to get into the type of legislation you're working so hard to pass, to protect others, like, like Sammy's law that you guys have been working so hard on.

Sam Chapman: (14:31)

Right. So Fentanyl takes a journey. It starts in China with the precursor chemicals. Uh, the Chinese government is actually paying the chemical companies to produce this. Um, and as terrible as this sounds, they're also sending over the fake pill molds to the cartels in Mexico to counterfeit drugs. And the cartels are taking the precursor chemicals and creating fake drugs. They are liquefying it and putting it into gas tanks and driving it across the border. They are compacting it into powder and flying it in drones across the border, putting it on container ships and bringing it into our ports in containers as big as a house with hundreds of them. So it's too much of, uh, trouble to search them. They're, um, putting them in migrants, uh, pockets and body cavities and making them carry them across the border as the price for migration. And then social media kicks in, and Facebook is being used to get drivers to pick the migrants up at the border and take them to the drug labs or to the dealer's homes, and repackage these things into, uh, consumable drugs in the right size packages for dealing.

Sam Chapman: (16:05)

And then social media kicks in again and solves the last mile problem for the drug dealers delivering the drugs into our communities, um, making it easy for any child that's on any of the platforms to contact a drug dealer using slang or emojis that their parents may not recognize and getting them delivered to their home the way it was delivered to our home. And, um, either killing the children or if not, then addicting them for life mm-hmm. So what we have done is to try and sponsor legislation, um, that will protect our children in any way we can think of. So one method is, uh, a law named after our son: Sammy's Law, the Let Parents Protect Act in Congress. It's House Resolution 5 7 7 8, and it requires third party safety software on any platform with children, including gaming platforms, um, and social media platforms. 

Hillary Wiilkinson: (18:05)

That’s huge to include both gaming and social media.

Sam Chapman: (18:09)

Yes. Because the gaming platforms are grooming havens for criminals. Uh, they may play with your children for two months before they set the hook. And, uh, they're using avatars, you can't see their faces. Mm-hmm. And the kid thinks it's their best friend. They've known them every day, and it turns out to be a 45-year-old pedophile or a drug dealer. So yes, gaming platforms like Discord are hugely dangerous, and the platforms with our children do not allow for the integration of third party safety software. For instance, uh, Discord, uh, Snapchat, TikTok, and the instant messaging platforms of Meta Instagram and Facebook, none of them allow for mm-hmm . Third party safety software. So Sammy's Law would just require that they open a link or an API to this industry, and then parents could download an app that would give them a warning if something dangerous or illegal happened on their devices.

Sam Chapman: (19:09)

Uh, the devices that they buy and they own and they give to their children. Right. So we're not editing speech, we're not flying in the face of the First Amendment. We are not trying to sue anybody. So it doesn't fly in the face of Section 230 C of the Communications Decency Act, which prevents Americans from suing these platforms for the harm that they do because they're treated like a blackboard. Mm-hmm . Under a law that was created in the 1990s that where you can't sue a blackboard for what someone writes on it mm-hmm . Um, so that's the way they're treating these platforms. But now, because of the dangerous algorithms and the way they use our children's data, they are driving harm to the kids. Yes. So, third party safety software like Bark, your viewers can go to Bark.US. Uh, that's their website. They have, um, this software, they have a, a safe phone, they have a safe watch. Um,

Hillary Wiilkinson: (20:09)

Titania Jordan has done a previous episode with us in season 11, so I invite people to listen to that episode as well.

Sam Chapman: (20:17)

Bright Canary is out there, um, for whatever it's worth, these, these, um, software work better on Android than on Apple. So if you're about to buy a phone for your kid, make it an Android and mm-hmm. Download the third-party safety software. It has, according to the FBI stopped 17 school shooting, it has called the police over a thousand times when there was imminent harm, and given out millions of warnings to parents on the platforms that do allow it to be integrated mm-hmm . And, um, we believe it's gonna pass in the next Congress. We have great support from the Speaker of the House, the majority leader, the incoming, uh, Republicans seem to be interested in this. Mm-hmm. They like a private market solution that doesn't fly in the face of all the protections, and that doesn't require the social media platforms to change the way they do business per se. Mm-hmm. They can keep doing whatever they wanna do with adults. Um, they can keep sending out, the bad messages, but parents will know what's happening, and we can parent again online.

Hillary Wiilkinson: (21:34)

As long as parents are informed. That's the, that's the catch there is so many parents don't even, I I have talked to parents who have these third party apps, and they still were, there was a lot of confusion on the fact that social media platforms, like you're not going to be covered under, uh, under those certain platforms. And That's right. I think that people just think they, you know, oh, I did the purchase, I did the thing, check the box and I'm done. But it, there's a few more steps that need to be taken there.

Sam Chapman: (22:11)

That's right. Snapchat was invented, uh, to hide these things. Mm-hmm . Because the snaps disappear. Um, it happened when Evan Spiegel and a couple of friends were at Stanford University, and one of them sent a, a, a infl picture to, uh, a girl, and he said, oh, I wish I could have that one back. And that gave birth to what they said was a million dollar idea, and they created basically a sexting app called Peekaboo mm-hmm . And after about a year, they realized that most of the users were teenagers, and so they renamed it Snapchat. And that is the app that 75% of American kids are walking around with in their pocket now. Um, basically, uh, a sexting app designed to do nefarious things, and it's become the dark web for kids.

Hillary Wiilkinson: (23:08)

Yes, yes. No, and it's, um, it's interesting because when my kids were kind of coming of age into that zone of when do we allow them to get social media, et cetera, there, uh, there was kind of a consensus originally around Snapchat that people thought it was better, that it was like, oh, it just goes away. So whatever they send.  There was a, there was a false sense of, oh, it doesn't matter what gets said because it, they, they viewed it as a safer alternative is what I can say, which could not be further from the truth.

Sam Chapman: (23:59)

So there are a couple of laws that were just passed and signed in California that I wanna mention. Yes. The first is SB 976, which forbids social media from contacting our children while they're at school or at night from midnight to 6:00 AM and, uh, prevents any dangerous algorithms or addictive algorithms from being delivered to a minor. And so, uh, that's just a fabulous law. The governor recently signed it, and within weeks, the social media and internet companies lobbying group Net Choice challenged it in court, and they will tie it up for at least two years fighting the fight around the First Amendment in Section 230 c.

Hillary Wiilkinson: (24:46)

And they have unlimited funds to do this with. Yes.

Sam Chapman: (24:50)

They, they, they sure do. They have unlimited funds. Uh, the other law that was recently passed, uh, and I testified in Sacramento using Sammy's story because as, as I mentioned, uh, Snapchat didn't help the police is SB 918. And that's been signed, and I believe won't be challenged. Um, and it allows, it mandates that social media platforms keep a line open for the police manned by a person, so that any emergencies or inquiries will actually be handled by the platforms. And it also requires that all valid subpoenas be returned within 72 hours. And these platforms have been sitting on parents' subpoenas even after they went to court, they did everything they had to, they lost a child via that platform. They, for months haven't been returning them, kicked them back from missing a middle initial, whatever excuse they can find. And the reason this is happening is because they, they report the number of users that they have on their platform to Wall Street every three months. And if that number goes down, their stock price gets hit. So they're worried about the number of users, not the health of their users. Yeah. Snapchat, for instance, Snap Inc hasn't earned any money ever. The only income they've ever reported is from, uh, interest income on the money that Wall Street gives them for their stock. And so if they take a hit on the number of users, it's a catastrophe. Oh. 'cause they're, they're not growing, they're not making money. Okay. So why would you invest? Yeah.

Hillary Wiilkinson: (26:37)

Yeah. Yeah. And when you boil it down to that, to that economic level, it becomes very clear why, why they behave the way they do.

Sam Chapman: (26:50)

Additionally, they have a, a cadre of lobbyists. Google has one lobbyist for every eight Congress people and, um, massive donations. In the past three years, the companies have given out $90 million in donations to Congress, and they fight legislation like Sammy's Law, tooth and nail. And we are up against the –, and the reason they have all this money is 'cause we can't sue them. Yeah. The American way is, if you harm someone, they can take you to court and make you pay, and then you won't do it again, because you don't want to be back in court with the next family. Right. And, uh, Section 230 C is standing in our way, and it needs to be changed.

Hillary Wiilkinson: (27:36)

Yes. I could not agree more. It's an antiquated law from a time when people did not have the tools that they have now to connect with the world. And it is, it, it's infuriating to me that it still holds up and all. I, I feel like the other reason why, uh, you certainly know way more about this than I do, but I feel like the other reason why they fight tooth and nail and tooth and nail not to get anything passed is because they do not want a case to set a precedent on anything, because then it's the chink in the armor that will happen. But I, I think we have to keep chinking…

Sam Chapman: (28:25)

Well, I agree. And I, you know, Senator Kennedy says, the new definition of a recession is when Google starts laying off lobbyists. Um, I think the answer is gonna be in the lawsuits. Mm-hmm . Like our lawsuit. Mm-hmm . You know, um, once parents are allowed to sue these platforms, they're gonna have to clean it up. Mm-hmm . And we're getting close. Uh, the third Circuit court in Pennsylvania just ruled that the algorithms and the artificial intelligence that drive those algorithms are not human speech and therefore not subject to First Amendment protections.

Hillary Wiilkinson: (29:03)

Oh, I did not know that. I love hearing that.

Sam Chapman: (29:06)

And that's a federal, that's a federal appeals court. And this will undoubtedly be referred to the Supreme Court, and they can either let the ruling stand and not hear the case or hear it and support the ruling. And once that happens, that will open the door to lawsuits all over the country.

Hillary Wiilkinson: (29:24)

I'm so grateful to hear about forward movement because it's very easy to swirl down the dark rabbit hole of how do we even begin to tackle this? And our messaging at Healthy Screen Habits always wants to be one of help. And I think help starts with hope. And so when you're, when you're giving some of those facts, it's like, okay, so that, that's our, that's our nugget of hope. And I think the, the help component from you also comes from your organization, Parent Collective. And I, I had a little bit of a tricky time finding the website until I realized it was parent collective.org. And I will definitely link that in the show notes as well as SB 976, SB 918, and Sammy's Law all, all will be in the show notes. But, um, can we talk a little bit about Parent Collective and what you guys do and who you're serving?

Sam Chapman: (30:35)

Sure. So we're serving a community of parents and kids, uh, who are in danger. Uh, we're doing it through education, through media, like your podcast, through, uh, creating a film. We're, we're creating a documentary. And so we're doing everything we can to warn parents to challenge the social media platforms that are the delivery mechanisms for these drugs. Uh, speaking to police, working with children, delinquent children I speak to, um, and, uh, my wife, Dr.

Sam Chapman: (31:57)

Laura Berman is a therapist. And after we got grief therapy, she decided that that was, um, something that there wasn't enough of out there available and took it on to her practice. And so she holds, uh, grieving mama meetups around the country and here in California, uh, once a month in Hermosa Beach, for instance, uh, just did one in Chicago, um, 30 to 50 moms who lost the child to online harm or fentanyl poisoning. And she brings in other clinicians and they do grief yoga, and they tell their stories and they get therapy, and they get community and they leave feeling much better.

Hillary Wiilkinson: (32:45)

I've heard you refer to yourselves as accidental activists, which tends to be the place that a lot of people within this, um, arena are. You guys are such a testament to the power of taking care of your mental health and your physical health, and being able to continue living through horrible tragedy and through, I mean, I feel like you guys are really, um, just, I don't know, inspirational, which I hate that I, I I don't, I don't like the phrase inspirational because nobody who is actually inspiring usually has intended to be there. So . But, um, but thank you for all that, that you guys are doing.

Sam Chapman: (33:46)

Well, thank you for saying, so we're part of a group of parents around the country who are fighting this fight as well mm-hmm . In all the states of the union. And one of our roles in Parent Collective is to bring everyone together mm-hmm . And to make our fight bigger. Right.

Hillary Wiilkinson: (34:04)

Right. 'cause we're better together. Yeah,

Sam Chapman: (34:06)

That's right. With fentanyl poisoning alone, we're creating 200,000 new parents every year who have lost somebody, and we're becoming a political force. Yes. Uh, we go to hearings in Congress. We were there when the five CEOs of social media platforms testified in the Senate mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . I saw the Senators walking out and I put Sammy's picture up as high as I could reach. Yeah. And the fellow next to me put his son's picture up. Yeah. And the woman next to him put her son's picture up, and then 70 other parents put their picture up, and as the senators filed out, they had to see what was happening in the country. Yes. And then the CEOs of the platforms came out and they saw all the death that their platforms had created, and you could hear a pin drop in the Senate hearing room. And, um, the sergeant in arms made us put down the pictures and they gaveled the hearing to order. And then later on, uh, Senator Hawley, uh, made Mark Zuckerberg stand up and apologize to us. Right. Which he didn't do a very good job

Hillary Wiilkinson: (35:16)

Of, by the way. I do not. Yes, I agree completely. I agree completely. I'm very familiar with the footage. And I was less than impressed with Mr. Zuckerberg's response with that.

Sam Chapman: (35:28)

And Senator Hawley said, put the pictures back up, and he had to look at all of the dead children that his platform had caused and other platforms had caused. Yeah. And, uh,

Hillary Wiilkinson: (35:39)

And he used the phrase, there's blood on your hands and,

Sam Chapman: (35:43)

And bragged about his platform leading an industry leading effort to make sure no one had to go through what we've been through. Uh, and the truth is, um, people are dying every single hour on his platform.

Hillary Wiilkinson: (35:58)

Yes. Yes. Okay. Well, we have to take another short break, but when we come back, I'm going to ask Sam Chapman for his healthy screen habit.

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Ad Break: HSH Website

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I am speaking with Sam Chapman, the dad of Sammy Chapman, who is Forever 16 after obtaining a fentanyl-laced pill on Snapchat. On every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask each guest for a healthy screen habit. And this is going to be a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice in their own home. Do you have one for me today?

Sam Chapman: (37:56)

I do. Until we're able to clean up the platforms and get third-party safety software out there, the best we can do is get the username and passwords for all of our children's devices and for the software that they use, make it a quid pro quo for keeping the devices or for giving them the devices. We still own them, we still pay for them. And we are the parents and that way, if something goes wrong, if you can go on the platforms, you can ask their friends what happened. You can, if your kid doesn't show up at one in the morning, you can find out where the party is. Um, and that'll work on some platforms on Snapchat where the snaps disappear, it won't work as well, but you can still network. And that's about the most protection that we can offer the kids right now.

Hillary Wiilkinson: (38:46)

Right now, until we get those other bills and Sammy's law passed. 

As always, you can find a complete transcript of this show, as well as a link to Parent Collective Inc website and the bills we discussed by visiting the show notes for this episode. You do this by going to healthy screen habits.org. Click the podcast tab and scroll to find this episode. Sam, thank you so much for being here, for sharing Sammy with us and for advocating for safer online spaces for all of our kids.

Sam Chapman: (39:25)

Thank you for having me.