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Hillary Wilkinson: (02:08)

One of the things I love about technology is that it removes boundaries of time and space. And we are now able to connect with one another sort of globally with this efficiency that I don't think people of even my parents' generation ever dreamed of. And part of the beauty of these connections is that we get to see, we are not so different from one another. Across the globe we experience and celebrate the same human milestones, and we share a struggle with things that oftentimes leave us feeling alone in kind of our journey. And this is one of the beautiful ways that technology can help us find community, recognize that we're not alone, and that's where today's guest comes in. She is very familiar with the struggles and triumphs of the human condition as a clinical and forensic psychologist. She's an international speaker on all matters tween and teen, and is the co-founder of KLIKD, an organization committed to providing, can-do solutions for families to use social media happily, safely, and responsibly. I'm so grateful for the technology that's allowing us to talk today because she is speaking with us all the way from South Africa. Welcome to Healthy Screen Habits, Pam Tudin!

Pam Tudin: (04:00)

What a wonderful privilege it is to be with you today and absolutely how technology can narrow the divide in so many different ways. Um, this being just one. So what a pleasure and what a, a lovely ride we are about to have, I think.

Hillary Wilkinson: (04:14)

Yes, I agree. And Pam, as you know, I'm, I'm in the United States, specifically California, which is the birthplace of Silicon Valley. I point this out because it's easy for us to think that the challenges and concerns that we have with our parenting is specific to our own little slice of the world. And can you, I, I just, I I'm very excited because like I was sharing with you earlier, you're my first, um, trans global guest . I've had, I've had guests from Canada, and all over the United States, but never so far away as yourself. So can you share a little bit about specifically where you are? And also I would love to take a deeper dive into hearing what you and Sarah Hoffman, your co-founder of KLIKD. What led you to create your organization?

Pam Tudin: (05:19)

So it's such a super question because the struggle is real on the bottom tip of Africa. The struggle is real in the middle of Africa. And if there were lots of teens and twins in Antarctica, I suspect the struggle would be the same. So what really led us to, to this little moment was Sarah is a social media lawyer. I am a psychologist, and Sarah used to give a whole bunch of talks on the legal fallout that children incur as a result of sending a nude or bullying someone online or sextortion, all of those things. And I would go and listen to her talks and be fairly awed by her, and she would come and listen to mine and take notes. And we kind of were eyeing each other out, um, if I'm honest. And then the day came when Covid shut the door and she phoned me and she said, I'd really like to pick your brain.

Pam Tudin: (06:14)

And I thought, gee, we are in quite a competitive space, the two of us. That's quite a, quite an ask. And I thought, you know what? The pie's big enough for everybody. I'm going to go and meet with her properly and, and get to hear about her. And when we met, she said, I've had this thought that dealing with the world, the teen and tween world, from a tech point of view, only legally is not helping them because all we are doing is giving them shock and fear. And if shock and fear worked, we'd all wear seat belts. Our teens would put on condoms, no one would smoke. Those tactics are not working. And if we only deal with things psychologically, well, you know, I don't need to say to everybody that people only come for psychological help when it's the after fact. So we decided to look at the sweet spot in the middle.

Pam Tudin: (07:04)

And like you, we really are about being proactive in the space and looking at healthy ways for our teens and tweens to manage their devices. Because as much as we'd like to follow someone like John Haidt and say that nobody should have social media until they're 16, and you know that no one should get an iPad until they're 28 and a half and about to be married, it's not happening. It's not happening. And for most of us, and I can tell you I've got teenage boys, the train runs away with us. So best we learn how to be the best parents we can be in the space, both from a legal and psychological point of view. And that little sweet spot, I think is where the magic happens. So Sarah and I have got together, we've created a whole curriculum for kids. We've got an app, and what we really do is help them not just to be safe and responsible, because actually for them that is white noise. What they wanna hear is how they can be happy online. And the safe and responsible is a fallout. It's the best next thing that comes with it. Because if you are happy online, the rest is a natural evolution. I love it. And uh, we've had a lot of fun doing it. And I hope to share some of the, the gains with all of you today.

Hillary Wilkinson: (08:25)

Yes, yes. I, I love it's such a positive take on things. That's what, that's what I really, and I think it's just infused. I hope people take the time to go visit your website and check out your app. We're gonna talk more about your app in a little bit.  Are you both located in South Africa then you and Sarah?

Pam Tudin: (08:46)

 Both in South Africa. And technology has helped us enormously because firstly, we live in very, we live thousands of kilometers apart from each other, and we meet every day online. We have fantastic technology that allows us to do that. And you know, I, I know her intimately, she knows me intimately. We meet, you know, obviously once a month for Strat Sessions in person, but for the rest, you know, we do online talks, we do offline talks, we, nothing is not possible with the technology that we have. So yes. You know, we much as we talk about the toxic trio after, after Covid, you know, bedrooms, boredom, and uh, kind of the sense that our children really did fall into a rabbit hole because we were also exhausted and we just couldn't manage that factor as well. Um, there's been a lot that's come out of it that has really also been good. So I hope we're gonna talk about some of those things.

Hillary Wilkinson: (09:39)

Yes. Yeah. So we're, I, I, I do wanna focus on all the positive things. I'm afraid I have to like, take a quick little jog to the left here and see. I just wanna ask, you touched on it briefly about the toxic trio, but what do you see are the biggest sort of pain points for this generation who's growing up in, in and with digital technology?

Pam Tudin: (10:06)

So I think for me, the biggest pain point is ironically, not the huge mistakes that they can make online that get them into big, big trouble. Because 85% of the time our children are actually really just kind of scrolling or engaging, or in their mind socializing. For me, the biggest pain point is that they believe that to be socializing. They believe that it is real connection. They have this deep, deep need to belong and when you need to belong, and you also have a device, that belonging comes through the device. And so what we do, what our kids are doing in the name of belonging, things like sending a nude, things like, um, behaving in a certain way when you're on a WhatsApp group, ghosting people, pushing people on, bringing them back into the group. Um, online comparison, you know, I look at my friend on Snapchat, she's got this perfect life.

Pam Tudin: (11:05)

Um, she got a pair of Nike techies, my parents are getting divorced and I can't get a pair of Nike techies right now. You know, I want those sneakers, those kinds of insidious impacts in terms of, you know, our, our life online I think is far more eroding of our children's self-esteem than any of the big mistakes that they could possibly make. Because it happens slowly. It's not a, you know, you suddenly you have this fantastic 8-year-old and you suddenly look at your 11-year-old. You go, where did my gorgeous little girl go? Where did my little boy who loved playing soccer, but now he only wants to play FIFA online? The vitality of our children is being lost to the devices.

Hillary Wilkinson: (11:53)

That's so poignant, and that for me, a pain

Pam Tudin: (11:55)

Point. Mm-Hmm. , you know, as well. Mm-Hmm. .

Hillary Wilkinson: (11:58)

And I like how you, you, it's, it's a little bit like death by a thousand cuts. You know, it's a, it's just a little nick and nick and nick and nick and it's kind of like that, um, phrase you've heard about, you know, a frog in boiling water where they say, you know, you put a frog in a pot of water and you increase the heat and increase the heat and increase the heat. And they, the frog doesn't even notice that it's being boiled to death because the water just slowly increases all the, the, the water temperature increases all around them. So,

Pam Tudin: (12:30)

Absolutely.

Hillary Wilkinson: (12:31)

Yeah. Yeah.

Pam Tudin: (12:32)

And with the analogy, what we are seeing is kids who never had anxiety are, are filled with anxiety. Kids who were never depressed are filled with depression. Kids are self-harming kids who would never have known what an eating disorder is, are doom scrolling at 11 o'clock at night. And what we know about the algorithm, which is a big pain point, I I believe, you know, an unwitting pain point, is that kids who are doom scrolling and say they pause for one sixth of a second on somebody who has an eating disorder on TikTok and she's talking about it once six of a second, tells the algorithm that you are interested in that. And for the next three and a half weeks, that's what the algorithm feeds you. Mm-Hmm. . So the algorithm always outsmarts our children. That's what it's designed to do. So this kind of slow addiction to seeing things that you don't, you know, you, you have no idea that you're actually interested in eating disorders, but then you get more and more of it and you go, geez, you know, or you get an idea that, that maybe somebody is self-harming in your, in your circle of friends and, and you try, you maybe you just Google it once to see what you can do to support the person, but you land up in a rabbit hole that you had no intention of landing up where there's all people who teaching each other how to do that.

Pam Tudin: (13:54)

Mm-Hmm. . Or you're playing Roblox and you just a little kid loving the Roblox game. And next thing the little avatar is on a, on a pole and is naked and is doing a strip dance. So our children are inadvertently kind of coming up against things that they're not equipped to deal with at a psychosocial level. Mm-Hmm. . And when they're not equipped to deal with it, you know, um, that's where we are seeing a lot of the stuff happen. Yeah. 'cause they're too scared to tell their parents.

Hillary Wilkinson: (14:23)

Yeah. As you were talking, I kind of had this image we always talk about, like, you know, oh, falling down the rabbit hole or going down the rabbit hole like Alice in Wonderland, you know, falling and everything. And then I just had this kind of aha moment where it's, it's not so much that our kids may be falling down a rabbit hole is the algorithm is picking them up and stuffing them down it so it's a forceful move that is happening. Yeah. 

Pam Tudin: (14:51)

Correct. It's designed to be addictive. We know that, you know? Yes. I wouldn't even patronize your listeners to, to tell them that because we all know that they are designed to be addictive. So the question is what do we do to upskill them to manage in the moment? Yes. So it's all well and good.

Hillary Wilkinson: (15:09)

Do, yeah. Do you have steps that you recommend for parents who seem to not be able to connect with their teens? Like do you have steps that can help them connect with technology?

Pam Tudin: (15:25)

Absolutely. Absolutely. So first and foremost, you know, there's, there's some kind of basic ground rules that we have to have. And, and the first one is you cannot be held hostage in your own home, right? So what does that really mean? It means that when you have an 8-year-old or a 15-year-old, or doesn't matter what their age is, and they are having an all fall down about the device, you have to remember when, if you think about your child when they were three years old and they wanted a chocolate and it was five o'clock in the afternoon and you were in Costco, whatever you guys call your, your 7-11, and they wanted the chocolate and you said, “Sorry, my sweetheart not happening. We are going home for supper.” And they lay on the floor with their feet in the air and screamed and yelled and said, “you're the worst parent in the world.

Pam Tudin: (16:16)

I hate you!” There wasn't one part of us that took that personally because we knew that we were doing the right thing and they could hate and be angry, but we moved through it very quickly, right? We are now in the chocolate aisle with screens. So when this perform and go on, and I hate you, everybody else is allowed five gigs of data and everyone else is allowed their phone in their bedroom, and everyone else is allowed to be on their device at suppertime. “Sorry, my sweetheart, that's not how we roll.” So if we can just hold onto first and foremost who we are in terms of our value system, and not take it on with them, don't engage the power struggle. When we don't engage the power struggle. We say, I get you really upset when you're not upset. I'd love to give you your device back, or I'd love to increase your, your amount of gigs.

Pam Tudin: (17:12)

Let me know when you're ready. So we don't step into every power struggle that comes our way because that's all we will do, right? So we cannot be held hostage in our own home as rule one. We are doing what we need to do as we did in the chocolate aisle way back when. It's not personal. We are not gonna do anything to allow ourselves to feel like we flailing. Yeah. And then we have to go in with curiosity in the light moments, you know? So instead of all we, if we, if you just notice yourself with the 80/20 principle, right? How much time do we go? Snapchat's bad for you. I really don't want you on TikTok. That stuff's the devil. On and on we go with these kind of words that we, we put over to our children. But if we turn it around and make a 20/80 and we go, show me what you're doing on TikTok.

Pam Tudin: (18:01)

I'd love to see, or I love how beautifully, you know, we have every right to check our children's phones. I'm a great believer in that. Parents say to me, well, my child deserves their privacy. They have a journal for privacy. They have a best friend for privacy. A phone is not something where privacy happens, especially when they're younger. So in a light easy way, we say, you know, , this is a bit of a weapon in your hands sometimes, and I'd love to just be, to be sure that you're managing this nicely. So from time to time, I'm gonna just check and see what's happening on WhatsApp, how you guys are talking to each other. And that is the time for the first three or four times no criticism. You go in light and you go, I love how you responded to this person.

Pam Tudin: (18:48)

Oh, I love the joke you made. Oh, I can see that you really supported Candy/Sandy/Mandy, when she was worried about what dress to wear for the prom, whatever it is, you reinforce that you loved how they engaged so that it doesn't become, oh my soul, my mother's checking my device and I'm about to get more criticism. And what you're doing in that space is you're building scaffolding. You're saying, I'm building relationship. We are connected so that when the time comes and you say, oh, I'm not so happy with how you're managing Snapchat, and I can see that the snap map, every time you look at the snap map, you can see that everyone went for a milkshake and you weren't invited. I can see that's not really working so well and it's making you not feel good about yourself. Let's swap out, let's take out Snap and let's maybe put in TikTok for a bit.

Pam Tudin: (19:38)

So you're not saying no Snapchat, right? You are giving a swap out and then you say, you know what, in a couple of months, let's, let's talk about it again and see how you're feeling about it. And maybe you'll feel more ready to cope with those things. Or maybe you'll have a different circle of friends that do include you, but for now, I'm your mom. I don't think this is working for you, and my job is to protect you. That's what I'm here for. Mm-Hmm. . So the nature of how we engage those power struggles is a huge part of how we stay connected. Um, and then we reward connection with connection. Simple things. Like, I loved how you chatted to me after supper. It meant a lot to me. I love how you treated your grandma when she was walking up the stairs and you put your device down and you took the time. I'm gonna give you some extra time on your device later. You reward connection with connection. So those things go a long way to helping our children feel like the only message I'm getting from my mom or dad around my device uses that I'm a bad person falls away.

Hillary Wilkinson: (20:43)

Right, right. Falls

Pam Tudin: (20:44)

Away.

Hillary Wilkinson: (20:44)

Yeah. And then I love that. I love the connection. Have plenty of connection before correction, because yeah, like you said, you're stalking that bank, so to speak. Yeah, absolutely. So we have to take a break, but when we come back, let's dive a little deeper into understanding the challenges of growing up in today's age of technology. And I wanna look specifically at sexting and like other teen secrets

Pam Tudin: (21:16)

With pleasure.

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Hillary Wilkinson: (22:24)

KLIKD spelled K-L-I-K-D is an organization founded by two moms, a psychologist and a lawyer who both have their heads firmly against the tween and teen online wall. Their mission is to grow good digital humans. And their approach is so relatable. If you've been listening to any of this, you understand why I wanted to get Pam on. And so Pam, like so many moms, you wear a lot of hats. And I think as this, as a psychiatrist and a parent educator, your expertise in the mental health field is super compelling as to listen to the advice being given. And here is something I think a lot of us who are parenting during this age have a tough time understanding. Our kids have been taught since a very young age at this point. Things like digital citizenship and protecting their passwords and stuff like their digital footprint is forever. You know, I mean it's, I, there's, that just gets met with eye rolls at this point. So I mean on and on and on in schools. But again and again, kids get caught up in sextortion or a nude scandal locally.  I'm just wondering if we can tap into kind of that professional brain of yours to explain what happens to create this sort of perfect storm of sexting and shaming and other teen secrets

Pam Tudin: (24:13)

With pleasure. So what we really believe at KLIKD is that sexting is a currency for our children, a currency. And it's a currency that they exchange in ways that we don't always think about. Back in the day, if you had a little moment with somebody, you know, maybe for, for the guys it was a notch on their belt or they would tell somebody else. But now the need to belong combined with the digital world allows our children to use sexting as the exchange of a currency in different denominations. So what am I really saying? If we think about people that our children know first of all. As an exchange. So the first exchange is the currency of fun. So we are connected, we know each other. I like you, you like me, let's have some fun, right? They don't see it as irresponsible.

Pam Tudin: (25:17)

They don't see it. In fact, the opposite. Lots of kids that I see in therapy will say to me, Pam, I sent nudes because actually I was doing the right thing. My boyfriend or girlfriend pressured me into having sex, but we settled on this, right? So there's the perception that fun and being responsible in this way kind of go together. So your exchanging in that moment like, I like you, you like me, and this is just a meaningless moment for a lot of them. They only feel anxiety in relation to sending that button, that push button when they get caught. Whereas about five years ago, they felt it extreme anxiety just in doing, in sending it. But it has been so normalized now for our kids that that first exchange is just that one of fun and the perception of being responsible. Then there is the exchange of glue.

Pam Tudin: (26:05)

We are in a relationship and if you really like me, this is what you'll do for us to stay together. Right? So it kind of ups the ante then we are no longer together, but if you want to get back together, all the other people that I was with when I wasn't with you did this. And this is the requirement. So the currency in that, in that place is the super glue of what will bring us back together. Then when there are people that I don't know, there is the exchange of affirmation as well. So I'm not just sending you a picture, but I met you, I met you at a football competition and I don't know you, but you told me that I'm beautiful. You really, you, you hooked up with me on Snapchat. You got my handle and you're telling me that I am the most beautiful person you've ever seen.

Pam Tudin: (26:57)

And then you ask for it, then it's an affirmation exchange. It, it can also be a status exchange. I'm the captain of the football team and if you want to get to know me, this is what you will exchange in order to do that. Then there is a higher order exchange of currency, and that is the avoidance of shame. I don't know you, but I can see your profile picture on WhatsApp and with AI, I can generate a nude body on that without blinking. And if you don't want me to send that to all your contacts, then you will send me a real picture right now. So that is the avoidance of shame, that currency exchange. Then there's also the avoidance of  perceived danger. I don't know you, but I can come to your school. I've seen on your TikTok, you know, what your, your school, um, is because in your bedroom you've got something that alludes to what school you're in.

Pam Tudin: (27:52)

And very quickly I can make you feel threatened and extort money from you if you don't do this. So what we see is that there's kind of low level currency exchange, maybe kind of like Zimbabwean dollars and then there's very high level threatening currency exchange: American dollars. So we have to really kind of tap into what is it that our children are hoping to get, what is the driver underneath that exchange? And really what it is primarily and mostly is a bridge to attachment, a desire to belong, or an avoidance of vulnerability.

Hillary Wilkinson: (28:35)

Which totally underlines the importance of what you were talking about before the break, the importance of that connection, the parent/child connection, because if they, if they are not getting that connection from your relationship, it's going to be turned outward. So yeah,

Pam Tudin: (28:58)

100%.

Hillary Wilkinson: (28:59)

I really like how you give that whole breakdown of the different types. I've never heard it done that way. 

Pam Tudin: (29:08)

From listening to so many of the kids over the years, um, in my rooms, what we've got to do is, is that place of understanding that it's never about the picture. It's always about what the driver is. And unless we upskill them for in the moment behaviors and understanding of what's really driving it, it'll just continue to be really, it's the, it's the next pandemic. Um, and with AI, you know, at the moment, for example, there's an organization in Nigeria that is very, very active in America. Mm-Hmm. . They are called the Yahoo Boys. And they are a, a group that work online and they teach other people how to sextort. So there are rings in the Philippines, there are rings all over the place. And our children, you know, you think you're talking to a boy you met at football, but it turns out to be a 69-year-old man who runs a ring in the Philippines. The last thing on earth you're going to do is tell your mother that someone's asked you for a thousand dollars because you sent them a nude. Sure. You know, so unless the relationship is intact, unless that relationship is there. So to keep that relationship there, you asked me earlier, you know, what is the healthy screen habit? I dunno if you want me to talk about that now, but I think it fits so beautifully here. 

Hillary Wilkinson: (30:31)

Mm-Hmm.  Lets talk about it and then we'll revisit it .

Pam Tudin: (30:34)

Sure, sure. Because what I, what I was saying to you is that I believe that one of the healthiest things we can do as habits with our children is show them. Not just tell them, show them that we are the soft landing place. And what does that mean? It means that when they make a mistake online, when they inadvertently send that nude when they push the button, when they're desperately looking for attachment and they think they're connecting with somebody that turns out to be somebody else. If we don't show them that we are the soft landing place, that we are their go-to person in those moments, it'll go underground and that's when things go viral, that's when things go bad. I'm absolutely not saying that there shouldn't be consequence for some of these kinds of moments that our children need to learn from, but first we say to our children, “Thank you for telling me my angel, this is a hard moment. I've got your back. We will deal with the fallout later. Right now I'm your person and we are gonna solve this together.”

Hillary Wilkinson: (31:35)

I love it. Yes, yes. 

Pam Tudin: (31:37)

Later when it's all done, that's when you say, “You know what, that was not your proudest moment. And as your mother, I'm afraid I do have to put some things in place now.” Um, but you only do that after you've 100% demonstrated that you are the person that they can fall to when the mistakes happen online.

Hillary Wilkinson: (31:57)

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So hoping that some tools are in place to help kids, um, not have to find their soft place to fall. Let's talk about the KLIKD app. Can you tell us about what does it do? And what, what functions it serves?

Pam Tudin: (32:23)

So it's totally there to help our children develop emotional intelligence with their device use. So what does that mean? It means our children don't have a frontal lobe until they are 25. They don't know how to hand break their behavior. Throw that in with my need to belong. Throw that in with I've got no sense of attachment. Throw that in with my parents are getting divorced or my dad works all the time. It's impossible to go, okay, I won't send a nude or I won't spend four hours on Snapchat wondering what's going on with all my friends or trying to engage people. You know, that is how it all falls, falls together. So what the clicked app does is it gives, we have 15 different modules, short little bite-sized, interactive fun modules that the kids download. And one would be for example, on how to deal with fake news, how to deal with that feeling of online comparison.

Pam Tudin: (33:19)

Another module is on sexting. Another module is what in the moment emotionally intelligent behaviors can I use when I'm being bullied online or when I feel like I want to bully someone online? We have a whole module on artificial intelligence now and some of the great things that come with artificial intelligence, not just the terrible things. How can I use it in my classroom? How can I use my critical skills and AI together? Um, you know, without being somebody who plagiarizes and just says, please give me a 14 page essay on Napoleon. Um, what do I need to do to engage this? Well? So every module is really about current edgy stuff. It's continually updated to deal with some of the challenges that our children are dealing with. You know, you know, TikTok was maybe a very primary thing a year ago. Very much now it's Snapchat.

Pam Tudin: (34:10)

Um, it's fun and it's all teens talking to teens. None of it is either Sarah or myself. We've scripted it all for them. But in the interactive exercises that they do, they only see themselves resonated back to themselves. So they go, “Oh, this could be me.” There's no big adult figure pointing a finger and going, “You're terrible and the device is gonna blow up in your hand because you're a horrible person using it all the time.” You know? Um, we've got some lovely fun in the moment skills for them. You know, if somebody asks you for a nude, you can send, you know, send me a dirty pic, how you can have a pic loaded on your phone of some dirty mud and go, I'm not your person. Or you send a picture of your grandma and going, I think you got the wrong number.

Pam Tudin: (34:55)

Or you send a picture of nude lipsticks when somebody asks you for a nude. And you know, what you're doing in that moment is you are in the moment showing “I'm not the person that you need to be asking.” And then you don't lose your cool factor because you don't outright have to say no, but you're having a fun engagement where you go, clearly I'm not the person that you should be asking for this without actually having to, you know, go there in a way that's hard for kids to say no can do. Sure. Um, sure. You know, obviously we upskill them also on how to actually say no in the moment because you can only use humor once as a diversion tactic and then you really have to, to grow a pair and be able to say no. And let me say to you that as many boys are asking as girls, it is not a, a boy on girl phenomenon by any stretch of the imagination.

Pam Tudin: (35:49)

What we very much know from the data is that girls are also asking, they just ask very different types of people. Boys will ask any girl, girls are quite discerning. They will either ask the very cool boy or they ask the boy who's really struggling socially. And they do that at sleepovers, you know, five of them get together, they have a sleepover. It's a big joke. You ask the boy who's really struggling, he goes, “oh my gosh, five cool girls asked me to do this. Of course I'm gonna do this.” Yeah. So all of those things we talk about in the, in the app and it's lots of fun for them. And we also have a whole curriculum for schools around every single module that we have scripted for the the teachers because they were not taught how to deal with these things. Right. So we've literally scripted every single classroom lesson for them.

Pam Tudin: (36:40)

And we also have for parents something called KLIKD In Your Pocket, which is a bite-sized little nugget once a week that they get, um, you know, how to manage sleepovers in the holidays when all my children only want to be on their devices or how to deal with the fact that my child discovered pornography accidentally or actively went looking for it. How to talk to our children while maintaining relationship. That's our big goal all the time. So we teach parents really how to do that in fun, easy ways as well. Bite-size little bits that, you know, you can manage without having to sacrifice three hours on a workshop.

Hillary Wilkinson: (37:18)

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that

Hillary Wilkinson: (37:21)

That's critical as well. I mean, just keeping it small and digestible, right? We have to take another short break, but when we come back I'm going to ask Pam Tudin for her healthy screen habit. 

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Hillary Wilkinson:

My guest today is Pam Tudin, co-founder of the KLIKD app and parent of two plus a Spaniel. I understand , I always love hearing what four-legged family members share, share households, . Pam, on each episode I ask for a healthy screen habit. You gave it, you gave us kind of a preview. Um, this is the tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice in their own home. Can you just review it briefly so people can get a, you know, we get that it's in teaching. You call it like a one, two, three aha moment. So we're gonna, we're gonna re-expose people to your healthy screen habit,

Pam Tudin: (38:40)

Beautiful. Be the soft landing place. Be the person that your child wants to come to first. If you can't succeed in that, you have to know that they're going to go elsewhere. So it's not a matter of telling them that you are the soft landing place. You have to demonstrate it. And when they make mistakes when they're little, that's the time where you go,”Thank you. I'm so happy you came to tell me that you found this weird stuff online. Um, I know that it's really weird to see two naked people doing things like that. Let's talk about it. And it was awesome that you were so brave to tell me!”  What you're doing in that moment is you're saying, I can, I can chat to you about anything without shaming you. I am the soft landing place. We'll work through this together and, and you make light along the way.

Pam Tudin: (39:26)

Keep it small and bite-size also so the children don't feel like, “Oh, here comes the lecture!” Um, there's no one big talk. It's the same, you know, with sex, it's lots of little talks along the way. And then ultimately remember that you are in the chocolate aisle. It's, you know, it's exactly the same. Your children are 13 as opposed to three, but you never fell apart when they said they hated you for not giving them a chocolate in the chocolate aisle when they were three. And you'll not fall apart when you hold tight to your values as a family when they are 13. 

Hillary Wilkinson: (40:14)

As always, a complete transcript of this episode as well as a link to click can be found in today's show notes. You find these by going to healthy screen habits.org. Click on the podcast button and use the dropdown menu to find this episode. Pam, I can't thank you enough for the conversation and your time and your just knowledge and expertise that really transcends all borders. I mean, you are talking about the same things that parents are dealing with in South Africa that we are dealing with in Southern California. And I just think the more of these global connections we can make, the better we will be as a planet.

Pam Tudin: (41:04)

I couldn't agree more on every single front. So thank you for the really great privilege of being on your lovely, engaging and, and for me, what is so refreshing is positively focused, um, you know, kind of energy in terms of device use.

Hillary Wilkinson: (41:20)

Thank you.