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Hillary Wilkinson:

Just a note about today's episode. Due to the nature of the content and discussion, we are going to recommend this specifically for listeners over 18. If you're choosing to do a shared listen with your kids, please do a first listen on your own so you're aware of the content. Thank you. Now, when I get questions about how today's youth is being affected by pornography, I have a few resources I like to recommend. And at the very top of this list is Culture Reframed. Formed in 2015 Culture Reframed is the premier science-based global organization of scholars, professionals, and activists addressing the harms of pornography to youth. And whether we like it or not, kids as young as kindergarten learn about sex every day in our digital age through advertising, music, tv, movies. I mean, it's a, it's a constant bombardment with a skewed version kind of, of sex and relationships.

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:36)

And what I love about Culture Reframed is they not only do the research on what this, these effects are having on our youth, they also provide solutions. My guest today is here to talk about one of the latest resources offered that is both groundbreaking. And honestly, the more we talk about sextortion and other things like this, I believe to be truly lifesaving. It's free thanks to generous donors, grants, and support from others like you guys. And it is really turning sex ed on its ear. I know it's been in development for a few years. I'm really excited to learn more today. Welcome to Healthy Screen Habits Culture Reframeds’ own director of programming, Dr. Mandy Sanchez.

Dr. Mandy Sanchez: (02:29)

Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.

Hillary Wilkinson: (02:32)

Oh yeah, I'm thrilled to talk about this . So, Mandy, she's told me I can call her Mandy,

Hillary Wilkinson: (02:39)

Mandy, what is the name of this amazing free resource and who is it available to?

Dr. Mandy Sanchez: (02:46)

Yes, absolutely. This is our new porn critical sex education curriculum, and it is available for everyone, um, particularly aimed at educators teaching kids, um, age 14 and up. So it is a free resource. It is, um, you can get to it by our website, and it is on its own learning management system called Brainier. So we are really happy to, to provide that for any educator, uh, working with kids age 14 and up in the area of sex or health education.

Hillary Wilkinson: (03:20)

Don't all states though, in the US mandate sex ed in schools? Like what, what's the difference here?

Dr. Mandy Sanchez: (03:30)

Yeah, there's a difference. In the us um, sex education standards vary by state with some states not requiring it in schools at all. But as of June of 2022, 28 states and  Washington, DC have mandated it. But of those states, only 17 require that the content be medically accurate. So today's limited sex education generally ignores that reality that most young people are exposed to pornography. We're looking at, um, anywhere from 9 to 11, but as you mentioned earlier, as young as five and six years old. So without this robust sex education, young people are gonna learn from any resource that's available to them, like their friends, the internet and pornography. And these sources are really unlikely to provide that accurate or helpful information.

Hillary Wilkinson: (04:23)

Right, right. And before we hit record, you and I were talking a little bit how, whenever we kind of enter this area of chat of pornography, one of the things that immediately gets called into question is whether this is a faith-based or a moralistic argument. And can you speak a little bit to that? Like, are, is Culture Reframed faith-based? Is it like what can you provide enlighten us?

Dr. Mandy Sanchez: (04:52)

Yes, absolutely. Well, um, we are not faith-based. We are not, um, politically based. We are a research based and scientifically backed organization. So we look at pornography in terms of a public health crisis of the digital age, and it's fueled by hypersexualized media. And we have over, uh, 40 years of research that shows how pornography is undermining the social, the emotional, cognitive, and physical health of, of kids especially. And these studies also are showing that porn really shapes how we think about gender, sexuality, relationships, intimacy, sexual violence, and gender equality. So we have to look at it from a public health, uh, standpoint, and then provide a public health solution to the problem.

Hillary Wilkinson: (05:46)

I think that just underscores why we have this direct need for what you guys call, and I, I have adopted this terminology simply 'cause I don't know of a better other way to say it, but like porn critical conversations. 

Dr. Mandy Sanchez: (06:03)

Absolutely.

Hillary Wilkinson: (06:03)

Yeah. And education that specifically addresses. 'cause like you said, I think, um, otherwise there gets to be a lot of voices in the room with kids that are, you know, developing.

Dr. Mandy Sanchez: (06:16)

Right, right. And I mean, we are, like I said, we are research based, and our research shows that comprehensive, developmentally appropriate sex education results in better overall health outcomes for people. And that's a public health issue, right. So we have to think about where young people are getting their information about sex and relationships. And most often we see that pornography is being the teacher. Um, and we, we totally, uh, back the idea that young people have a right to factual and accurate objective information, um, instead of this moralistic or politically bent information, um, so that they can make informed decisions about themselves and, and keep themselves and others safe.

Hillary Wilkinson: (07:02)

When we come back, we're going to be talking about some of the most troubling trends happening right now on social media and gaming platforms. 

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Hillary Wilkinson: (08:04)

I'm speaking with Dr. Mandy Sanchez, the Director of Programming at Culture Reframed, who's been researching and writing about pornography and violence against women for over 20 years. Mandy is also a trained trauma-informed facilitator. So, wow.  You kind of really handle the stuff of life that not everyone is brave enough to, and thank you.  Because of the hard work you do. And kids and families now have resources to turn to, you know, and when we look at data, we can see that kids today are actually ending up in emergency rooms due to accidents less than they have historically. The rate of teen pregnancies in the US are at an all time low. So it, I I'm bringing up all of these because it could be argued that our kids are in better places than ever with safe sex practices. So how does hypersexualized media and porn harm people? Because we're, there's a, there's a, I don't know, there's kind of a, a pushback on what we're seeing in some data.

Dr. Mandy Sanchez: (09:30)

Right. Well, I think the main thing that we need to think about is the way in which porn shapes the culture in which we live. So the porn industry influences what we watch, what we see, what we consume, and porn tells stories. And not only is the majority of porn, and this is mainstream pornography, violent and degrading to women, it also tells stories about what it means to be a “real man”, um, one who lacks empathy and compassion, and the capacity for intimacy and what it means to be a “real woman” who exists to be used and abused. So that's what porn is teaching our kids. It tells consumers a story about themselves and others. And the scripts in pornography most often rely on power imbalances, on derogatory terms, racism, violent sexual behaviors, and we're all influenced by, to some degree, by the messages it conveys.

Dr. Mandy Sanchez: (10:28)

So, um, I've been doing the research for 20 years on that connection between pornography and violence to women and children, but 40 years of research. So four decades of research has shown that it really undermines the whole person health of young people. So it impacts every facet of their developmental wellness, whether that's social or emotional, cognitive or physical. So it's shaping how kids think about sex and relationships, including respectful behavior and consent, and things like equality and their understanding of their own bodies and how it works really. Um, and porn consumption has really been scientifically linked to the development of negative self-images, uh, low self-esteem, increased depression, the likelihood of eating disorders in both boys and girls, um, increased anxiety and decreased capacity for intimacy and connection. And we see this, uh, link to the increased likelihood of kids engaging in risky and, and violent sexual behaviors, um, and the increased likelihood of being sexually victimized.

Hillary Wilkinson: (11:42)

Yeah. Yeah. So I can see how the data that I just referenced does not align with the harms that are being caused by porn, because I think that the harms are probably more accurate, accurately reflected in the mental health statistics that we're looking at, not just emergency room. And because honestly, I, I cannot think of too many teens that are going to, you know, be telling mom and dad, they need to go to an emergency room, do to some sexual trauma. That Right. They may or may not have part, you know, I just Mm-Hmm. , I don't see it happening. I, I really appreciate your phrase. You said porn tells stories. Mm-Hmm. . And as an educator, we know that storytelling is actually one of the most effective ways to teach kids. And so you can see how porn is really, truly hijacking an educational component.

Dr. Mandy Sanchez: (12:42)

Absolutely. 

Hillary Wilkinson: (12:43)

How do you recommend, so when, now we know kind of the background, but how do you, how do we talk to kids about hypersexualized media in porn?

Dr. Mandy Sanchez: (12:52)

Yeah. So, without

Hillary Wilkinson: (12:54)

Sounding, without sounding like, you know, old.

Dr. Mandy Sanchez: (12:58)

Old and old and vanilla and all of those things, that we're sometimes called, well, um, well, first off, we understand how scary and overwhelming it can feel as a parent to know that your child either has seen or will see this explicit, these explicit images or pornography. Um, and here's the thing that we always say, you're not alone. Um, it's not yours or your child's fault. Um, but parents are perfectly positioned to offer their kiddos alternative and healthy messages about sex that instill respect in themselves and others. And there is action that you can take to help your child become more resilient to the negative impacts that I just mentioned. So we have on our website, free courses for parents, and we use them as Best Practice toolkits. Um, it gives parents and even educators that science-based framework that we were talking about in which to have those gentle and safe conversations with kids about explicit content.

Dr. Mandy Sanchez: (14:02)

And believe it or not, kids want to have these conversations. And even when they act like they don't, um, when we interview kids or when we read reports of kids being interviewed, they say, “oh my gosh. Like, it made me feel like my parent actually cared about what was going on in, in my life right now, even though it really is a far cry from what they grew up with.” Right? So to really have the conversation, and we say it's never too early and never too late to have those conversations. And we always recommend scaffolding, right? Scaffolding that information by correctly naming body parts and talking about body boundaries at younger ages. And then you can talk about consent at any age. With, with children. Um, so we also recommend being really present and watching for warning signs.

Dr. Mandy Sanchez: (14:56)

You know, and this has to do with, you know, tech use and social media use, gaming, but, you know, really watching, are they closing their device or they're sticking their phone under their leg as soon as you walk in? Are they spending long amounts of time in the bathroom with a connected device? Right? Are they having sleep disruptions? Are they being very secretive? So, you know, our number one tip is to start the conversation, keep it open, keep it honest, and keep it regular. Right? So encourage those questions and, and you be the resource that, that your kid's gonna come to, to ask questions about sex and relationship. You're that, that one that offers no shame and no blame, and a safe and supportive environment to have the conversation. So we have, um, conversation starters embedded within our, our free programs, um, that really help parents start, you know, the actual conversation. We, we have a compose yourself model that allows parents to kind of stay calm and not panic, and then, you know, come back in and, and say, you know, we gotta have this conversation because I'm here to support you and keep you safe. And that's my number one job as a parent.

Hillary Wilkinson: (16:09)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And one of the things also that I appreciate about Culture Reframed is, um, you guys are parents, you guys ? Absolutely.

Dr. Mandy Sanchez: (16:18)

You guys, I have a 12 and 16-year-old, I just

Hillary Wilkinson: (16:20)

Laughed when you said the compose yourself. And I'm like, oh my gosh. I just spoke with a, you know, I, I just recorded with a guy outta San Diego who does, um, uh, you know, is doing units on sexploitation. Mm-Hmm. . And I was saying, you know, how do you stay calm? How do you do this? Right? So that's a huge part of it is just like, okay, how do we remove our own fear, get grounded, and then just move forward

Dr. Mandy Sanchez: (16:48)

And then move-in, you know, not panic. Um, we always say the number one thing you should do if you walk in and, and see your child on a, on a site, or, you know, being exposed there, is to walk out. You know, our first gut reaction is to shut it all down and, you know, go in and, and, um, you know, with our hair on fire. But the, the best thing to do is walk out, because then that gives you a second to really, okay, let's take a breath. Take a breath. Like, let's take a breath. Let's compose ourselves, let's stay calm. Let's understand that there's a natural curiosity to, to explore our bodies and, and learn about how our bodies work and how sex and relationships work. Um, but to really kinda, hang on a second, go in and say, “Hey, we have to have a conversation, but I'm gonna let you pick the time.”

Dr. Mandy Sanchez: (17:37)

Right? You, you decide whether it's today, whether it's tomorrow, but it has to happen, right? And usually we recommend, you know, get in the car, you know, you have one minute to your destination, and that's what it should be. You know, this one minute conversation over your 100 minute lectures. And if we have 100, 1 minute conversations, then we're scaffolding, we're building, we're talking, we're checking in. So, um, and then use what we have available to us. Like, I hear songs on the radio and my kids are dancing to, you know, like singing to the songs, and I'll turn it down and I'll say, what did you just say? What, what, what was that lyric? And of course, they're like, oh, no, nothing. I didn't say anything. Right? And so this is a really good opportunity to say, what do you think that means when, right.

Dr. Mandy Sanchez: (18:25)

He says X, Y, and Z. You know, what does, what does that mean? What do you think about that? Or how would you tell a friend who received a a naked selfie, you know, what, what advice would you give them to, you know, and so you're really engaging them and really, kids want to be your teacher. They wanna teach old mom the new trick. Right. You know, the new tricks. So if they can teach you and they can school you on what's current, then let them, you know, let them be the guide, and you just be there to ask the questions.

Hillary Wilkinson: (18:56)

Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree with that. Yeah. I, I, and the, um, the lots of little conversations, I think mm-Hmm. is so important because I think as adults, it's our tendency to just go, okay, here we go, do a deep dive, stay down for a long time, come up and go, woo! Check that box! We're done! Done. You know? Exactly. And it, it's, it's, uh, better with many, many little than Mm-Hmm. One big

Dr. Mandy Sanchez: (19:27)

Than one big. Absolutely. Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (19:29)

So, um, you've talked about kind of like letting our kids be kind of drivers of current trends. Mm-Hmm. And do you I I, I hear you and I want to endorse that. However, I also want to know from your perspective…

Hillary Wilkinson: (19:47)

What do you guys see as some of the most troubling trends happening right now on social media Yeah. Or gaming platforms?

Dr. Mandy Sanchez: (19:57)

Yeah, absolutely. So I've been researching, um, social media and gaming platforms for the past three to four years now. And, and looking at these viral challenges, which many of them turn out to be fake, but we have to take a look at TikTok, right? Mm-Hmm. . And, and some of the more recent, but now it's like kind of old, are those, um, blackout challenges where teens were dying of as asphyxiation, um, and, and they were pressing on chest or holding their, their noses or, or kind of using strangulation techniques so that they could black out. Um, and we're seeing the rise of, of strangulation in types of, uh, problematic sexual behaviors. So that's directly related to what we do. Um, also there's an, Are You Into Me? trend where users are posting a picture of their crush on TikTok without their permission, and often with the hashtag stalker, um, or it will say Joe Goldberg method, and that's based off the Netflix series You. 

Dr. Mandy Sanchez: (21:00)

Where the main character Joe is an obsessively sinister stalker who uses social media and the internet to get close to the women that he stalks. So that's, you know, that's about glorifying, um, glamorizing stalking, um, taking pictures of people without their consent. So it blurs those lines, um, for us. So we're, we have an eye on that. Um, on Snapchat we have, um, the Mean Girls 2.0, when the Mean Girls movie came out, there was, um, Snapchat applications to Be a Mean Girl. And we hear from lots of parents and school administrators that this was causing a rise in bullying in schools. Um, so we were, we were really looking at that. And then of course, catfishing for reputation ruin is another one where kids will start a fake at fake account. They'll use their friend's name and they'll post really rude sexual comments or embarrassing photos, or sometimes racist comments on there where they're, they're, um, passing back and forth nudes and sexting.

Dr. Mandy Sanchez: (22:00)

Um, we also see disordered eating, self-harm, suicide disguised as fitness or self-help on applications like Discord, for instance. Um, and you mentioned Sextortion earlier, where adults, uh, could be posing as those age appropriate romantic interests online, and they're soliciting nude or compromising photos and using them to blackmail teens. Um, and then we see also it's a development, so it's not yet a trend, but this is something we have our eye on at, Cultural Reframed, but it has to do with AI. So this, you know, AI social media vetting, the deep fakes are making a ride, you know, coming back in. So we're kind of looking at that, the AI generated, uh, voice and, and photos and images. So we're kind of watching watching that as well.

Hillary Wilkinson: (22:52)

Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned right off the bat the, um, the choking challenges. Yeah. And yeah, and I mean, very deadly challenges. I've recorded with, um, parents who sadly have lost children due to this. Yeah. But this whole, this whole new trend of sexual strangulation is, um, something that I think many, uh, it kind of has flown under the radar and it got incorporated into some Hollywood type shows. Mm-Hmm.

Dr. Mandy Sanchez: (23:26)

It sure has.

Hillary Wilkinson: (23:26)

Yeah. Like euphoria and a bunch of shows that were very mature in content, but I think teens kind of got exposed to a whole level of this violence.

Dr. Mandy Sanchez: (23:43)

Yeah. And, and we see that, I mean, Peggy Orenstein just wrote an article in the New York Times, it was in April, um, mid-April this year, and it was called the Troubling Trend in Teenage Sex, and talked about this notion of what we call what is strangulation, but kids are calling Choking, where, um, she was citing research from Debby Herbenick. She is an Indiana University professor, and she did a campus representative survey and, and found that two thirds of, of those she interviewed had been choked during sex, and one third had been choked in their most recent sexual encounter. So this was a huge increase, nearly 40% increase for those who said that they were between the ages of 12 and 17, the first time that that happened. So we're, you know, we're interviewing 18 to 24 year olds, but they're reflecting on when they were 12 and 17. So definitely, um, talks of strangulation being portrayed as erotic and even consensual. Right. Even though most don't understand the extreme health effects that, that are related to, to strangulation. Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (24:58)

Yeah. Mm-Hmm. . And it's hard to have these conversations with your kids. It sure is. I have a 21-year-old son, and it's, it's hard to say. Mm-Hmm. , hey, so Mm-Hmm. know and bring these things up.

Dr. Mandy Sanchez: (25:17)

Right, right. And it was, you know, and, but I always say like, if we can use our, the media, like if, if the media's gonna be out there and it's not going away anytime soon, whether that be social media, gaming, um, movies, music, whatever it is, um, let's try to use that as conversation starters. Right. Just like in the lyrics that we hear, or, you know, I there is a song by Jack Harlow and he says, “ I'll, I'll choke you, but I ain't no killer.”  And I asked my 12-year-old, I said, what, what did he say there? And of course he is like, oh, I don't know, is it bad? Like, you know, and, and he didn't know what it meant, but my 16-year-old was like, let's, “We should have a conversation about what it means, because I know kids in my school that are doing this”, you know, and of course we have, we opened this up and, you know, my oldest decides to tell my youngest like, this is what's going on. And of course he is, he's shocked, you know, because he's like, why would any like, that doesn't make any sense. You know? And so then you, you know, kind of move forward on that. Like, this is a trend, this is what people are doing, and it can really hurt you. You know, like, this can, this can be very dangerous. And so then it, you know, it opens up that space, you know?

Hillary Wilkinson: (26:32)

Yeah. Yeah. So, um, thank you for Yeah. For bringing it into this space. We have to take a short break, but when we come back, I'm going to ask Dr. Mandy Sanchez for her healthy screen habit. 

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Hillary Wilkinson: (28:32)

I'm speaking with Dr. Mandy Sanchez, the Director of Programming at Culture Reframed since 2021. The mission at Culture Reframed is to stop the emotional, behavioral, and sexual harms of pornography to children and youth. I feel like today through the sex ed curriculum, you've given us a great tool to help us on that path. And now on every episode of the podcast, I ask each guest for a healthy screen habit. And this is a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice into their own home nearly immediately. What's yours?

Dr. Mandy Sanchez: (29:16)

Great. Well, mine is to educate yourself through our free online programs to create the space and talk to your kids openly and honestly about hypersexualized media and porn. Find those teachable moments to build on these conversations. And remember, this is about safety and it's our number one job to keep our kids safe. So check out our free resources on our website.

Hillary Wilkinson: (29:42)

Yes, I love that. And I also love the parent based portion where there's conversation starters. There's, it makes it very accessible and approachable. It isn't this like deep dive into the dark and scary unknown that I think like when, you know, you're like, oh my gosh, here, I'm, you know, yeah. Planning, planning the leprechaun visit and not wanting to talk. You know, I mean, it's like,

Dr. Mandy Sanchez: (30:11)

Right.

Hillary Wilkinson: (30:12)

You, we, we teach a lot as moms. It's

Dr. Mandy Sanchez: (30:17)

Absolutely we do between tying shoes and then talking about pornography, right? Like, there, there's a lot that we, that we do and we don't, I mean, we shouldn't expect parents to be experts in porn too. We have to be experts in everything else, so we just try to make it easier for parents.

Hillary Wilkinson: (30:34)

As always, you can find a complete transcript of this show and a link to all of the resources mentioned by visiting the show notes for this episode. You do this by going to healthy screen habits.org. Click the podcast button and find this episode. Mandy, thank you so much for everything you do. It's not everyone who has kind of the courage to make a career out of the darker side of humanity, . and I'm so grateful for the work that you do.

Dr. Mandy Sanchez: (31:08)

Well, thank you so much, and thank you for elevating our organization.