Spark & Stitch Institute

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The Social Dilemma

Hillary Wilkinson: (00:01)

My guest today is a parent, speaker, and author who helps families and educators navigate the complexities of adolescents, parenting, and technology. As co-founder of Spark and Stitch Institute, she translates research into practical strategies. She is also the author of It's Their World: Teens, Screens, and The Science of Adolescence, a great new book that is coming out very soon on May 13th, although you can pre-order it now, which is always appreciated. Welcome to Healthy Screen Habits. Erin Walsh.

Erin Walsh: (01:05)

Thank you so much, Hillary. Thank you for having me.

Hillary Wilkinson: (01:07)

I'm thrilled you're here, honestly. And Erin, one of the things that I love about Spark and Stitch is not just that you apply a science-based approach to relating with teens, that includes developmentally appropriate practice. Mm-hmm. Because each kind of age and stage has their own set of things that we dance with, but also that you work with your Dad! I love this! How, did that happen and how did screen time become your focus? 

Erin Walsh: (01:40)

Yeah. Thanks for, I love that you brought that up. It is, it is fairly unique and I never would've guessed when I was a teenager that I would spend my life working with my own dad on issues related to media and child and adolescent mental health and wellbeing. Um, and I, I got into the work in a bit of a roundabout fashion. So when I was a teenager, my parents started one of the first education and advocacy organizations looking at media's impact on child health and development. So it was called the National Institute on Media and the Family and its mission was to maximize the benefits and minimize the harm. So I, I am sure that sounds nice to you. I'm sure it sounds nice to all the listeners. Um, but let me remind you that I was in high school at the time. So I think initially I never would've imagined my relationship with my parents' life work was, you know, arguments about why I had to do my homework before I played video games, and why I had to think critically about things I was seeing on screens.

Erin Walsh: (02:28)

Um, and I sort of went off into the world ready to chart my own path as many young people do. But of course, I started looking at the world around me and thinking about how the world was changing. And importantly, I started working with children, and I also started working around issues related to body image and self-esteem. And it turns out that you can't have a conversation about body image without talking about , the powerful role of screens and technology in our lives. And I realized, um, in my early twenties, I had a, a local expert I could call, and that was my dad. Uh, and that was sort of the beginning of, of me returning to that conversation and realizing that I didn't want it to just be his generation or mine or now my own teenagers. Um, but that we really all wanna be a part of the conversation about how do we live well in a world dominated by screens. So, um, we've been working together for the last, the last 20 years, uh, translating the science and, and hopefully sparking important conversations just like, just like your work, we really see you as colleagues.

Hillary Wilkinson: (03:28)

Yeah. I love the whole circle back because I think, you know, always healthy screen habits, we want to come from a place of help and hope. Yeah. And you know, there are many times during our, uh, parenting of teen years, we, we really need the hope. And,

Erin Walsh: (03:50)

We sure do!

Hillary Wilkinson: (03:51)

Hearing that full circle cycle goes, oh, look at, look at, look at what we're working on so hard so that we can, 

Erin Walsh: (04:00)

Exactly. Yeah. And we're not, we're not really sure where those seeds that we plant. It's not like I turned to my dad when I was 16 and said, thank you so much for this mind blowing advice, and I can't wait to spend my, my life co-creating a digital solutions or digital wellbeing solutions with you. And of course not. I pushed back, I was annoyed, I rolled my eyes. But those seeds, uh, did grow in, in my own life. We're not, we're not quite sure how they're gonna grow in our kids' lives, but it is often a delayed gratification activity, the art of raising teenagers. Um, and we're not quite sure how, how it's gonna end up, but that, that hope that they will kind of come back to us maybe a after adolescence and say, Hey, you, you were onto something and I'd like to kind of join you, uh, in this work.

Hillary Wilkinson: (04:43)

Wonderful. Your work focuses, as you can tell already from me talking, your work focuses on connection and relationship health. And now I am very aware that as teens get older, or as our kids grow into their teenage years, developmentally it's appropriate. And although it's not easy to live with, but they, they tend to wanna pull away both online and offline. Yeah. And how do you recommend we show up for our teens without being overwhelming or smothering?

Erin Walsh: (05:18)

Yeah. That isn't, that, that's like the tender art of raising a teenager. And I do think this is where it helps that I not just have my spark and stitch hat on, but also my parenting hat with a rising high schooler and a rising middle schooler next year. Um, you know, you just noted this sometimes wrenching, overwhelming experience that, you know, psychologists talk about is individuation, which is just a fancy way to talk about this developmental task of our kids wanting to go out into the world to figure out who they are, um, and where they belong and, and where they wanna go in the world. And that developmental task, as you noted, often involves pushing us away. Um, in order to figure out who they are, they sometimes have to draw a sharp distinction between who they are and who, who we are until they maybe come back to us in their early twenties and work with us.

Erin Walsh: (06:09)

Yeah. Uh, or whatever path that takes. So I think, you know, what we wanna remember is that that's developmentally right on time. Um, it's easy for me to take it personally, even though I know the science and remembering, oh, this is, this is a developmental task. And to remember that, especially when we're talking about things like screens and technology and social media, um, we know from the data that teens do want to hear from us, they actually may not turn to us and tell us they want guidance, but they tell researchers, um, Hey, I do wanna hear from the caring adults in my, in my life. So we can lean on that a little bit and both respect their autonomy, respect their, their desire, their drive to go out and figure out who they are, um, but without entirely letting go.

Erin Walsh: (07:05)

So we talk about this at Spark and Stitch as this art of loosening, uh, without letting go. So we wanna give them space to be, um, figure out who they are, but we also don't wanna treat them like mini, mini adults and just say, oh, okay. Uh, you know, you're asking to be a grownup. You want space, good luck out there. Um, and I think it's easy for us to respond from those two extremes when our kids start pushing us away and saying, I don't wanna talk to you about what's happening on Snapchat, or, I don't wanna talk to you about anything that's happened at school as one response. One extreme is to sort of over respond, clamp down, try to control, do everything we can to pry them open, bring them back in. Um, but then that other response that I just mentioned, that sort of letting go, just, you know, treating them like mini adults, neither of those really give teens what they need developmentally, which is practice and coaching.

Erin Walsh: (08:00)

So they need a playing field to get out there and figure out who they are and to practice new skills. But they are still in desperate need of a coach mm-hmm . And, and we can sort of, uh, uh, play that role. So, um, what does that look like? What does that sort of loosening without letting go look like in practice? Certainly it has to do with purposeful boundaries and a safe playing field. Safe, safe enough playing field. Um, but it also means that we wanna stay connected and get creative with connection. Because kids at 15, 16, 13 don't generally turn to us and say, um, I just wanna hang out with you from dawn till dusk. Right. Or the things that we used to do when you were eight, I don't wanna do anymore. Um, so how do we hold that sort of, as Dr. Lisa Damour talks about warm and strict, that we have those purposeful boundaries, but within those boundaries we're getting really creative.

Erin Walsh: (08:51)

Uh, you know, in my case, I'm staying up a lot later than I would like to, 'cause my kid is not tired. Right. So we're sort of taking their lead. I wanna connect in the morning, and that is not when he wants to connect. So we're staying up a little later. , uh, when I'm really sleepy, is when he's ready to talk, taking their lead, um, being curious and sort of, um, open to where their interests are and meeting them, um, in those new spaces. So loosening without letting go, uh, easier said than done, but a yeah, I think a helpful guidance.

Hillary Wilkinson: (09:24)

Yeah. And I, you know, specific to the digital realm, I have also found that sometimes it helps to kind of put my kids in the place of, I'm gonna use the term subject matter expert. And it's not that that they're necessarily, you know, they don't know it all, but just that have them watch, maybe say a documentary on digital wellness or, you know, like, Childhood 2.0 or like, The Social Dilemma. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And ask them like, what do you think? Like what is it? Is this, does this hit with you? Or like, what, you know mm-hmm . But come from a place of curiosity rather than, or did you see this? Did you see, you know, so yeah. I feel like in my house at least, that that has worked well to spark those conversations. Yeah. Beautiful. So, I, I, I hope, um, I hope this passes muster with Spark expert over here, but, we'll,

Erin Walsh: (10:29)

Yeah. I mean, I love, I love that because in many ways our kids are content experts. This is a different world than the one that we grew up in. And we can get so overwhelmed and think we have nothing to offer. And we know that that's not true. Right? We know that our kids are relying on us for guidance and coaching and problem-solving, um, but we can also assume that we know everything. And that is also not true. 

Hillary Wilkinson: (10:52)

No.  I've never pretended that!

Erin Walsh: (10:53)

Yeah. They, they have a lot of expertise. And I think asking those kinds of curious questions and remembering that our job is not just to transmit the knowledge. Like, you know, it can be easy for us to feel like, you know what, you know, we know what they should do. We know how they could avoid harm, and how they could avoid undue suffering. So we'll just tell them, we'll just tell them all the things to do. We'll, give them the roadmap and then they will have it easier maybe than, than I did. And unfortunately, the teenage brain is just, it doesn't work that way. And their lives are pretty different than ours. So even our roadmap might not quite be the perfect fit . Um, and so rather than focusing on that sort of transmit the knowledge, the teenage brain is organized around agency and autonomy and, uh, getting out through trial and error. So, uh, before we can offer any kind of wisdom, we need to ask those questions. I love your suggestions of even having those sort of neutral content pieces. They're like, well, what do you think of that? And our kids thinking that? Or, what advice would you give a fourth grader? Uh, teenagers tend to like to give advice about younger kids, For sure. Or what are your friends saying? Um, and I think, I think that those are really beautiful invitations.

Hillary Wilkinson: (12:04)

Yeah. And I like the, I like the invitation to like, what would, what would you recommend for a younger child? Because it kind of, it kind of, um, also builds that empathy muscle, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So I think that's really important. And I feel like everything that we're talking about really gets to the title of your book. It's Their World: Teen, Screens, and the Science of Adolescence. It kind of, it reminds me of that phrase that I'm a Gen Xer, and we grow, grew up hearing this phrase of we borrow the world from our children mm-hmm . But yet we're still an active part of this world. And helping them navigate it and recognizing that we're in this immensely transitional time for humanity Yeah. Of adapting to digital technology and maybe even redefining what it means to be like sentient. I mean, it's, it's,

Erin Walsh: (13:03)

Yeah. I mean, we're, we're, we're, we're,

Hillary Wilkinson: (13:05)

We're in like brave new world

Erin Walsh: (13:07)

Towards that question.

Hillary Wilkinson: (13:08)

Yes, exactly. So I guess I feel like you're, you've already touched on it a little bit….you know, it kind of helps sometimes if I pre-think a script or, but do you have any recommendations of how to offer wisdom and like, still speak as the voice of an elder, but maintain that like, mentor type relationship? Recognizing it's, it's just kinda tricky because it's like, in essence borrowing the world from our children, but yet we're still here. Yeah. We're,

Erin Walsh: (13:47)

We're, we're

Hillary Wilkinson: (13:48)

Very

Erin Walsh: (13:48)

Actively

Hillary Wilkinson: (13:49)

Involved, so

Erin Walsh: (13:49)

Yeah. And we have stuff to offer . Yes. And we have guidance and we're, and we're creating that we are shaped, I, I think the practice field.

Hillary Wilkinson: (13:57)

Yeah. I think it's the definition of middle age is what I'm saying. Among other things!

Erin Walsh: (14:03)

Totally.  It's like, we're not gone yet. Right? Yeah. Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (14:05)

Right. Yeah. So do you, how do you approach that?

Erin Walsh: (14:10)

Offering wisdom to an adolescent mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Yeah. I mean, I think first we've already touched on some of that foundational stuff. Yeah. That, that the first step is to ask questions like, before we know what to offer. Cause I think part of what that gets at is this acknowledgment to our kids that we understand that it's complicated. We don't understand everything they're experiencing, but we understand that there aren't always simple solutions. That there isn't always, um, just sort of a two steps and it'll be solved. That growing up in a world dominated by screens is not always straightforward. It's complicated. It actually asks young people to use a pretty sophisticated set of emotional and cognitive skills. . Yeah. Um, and they're, you know, a generation that is figuring that out as they go. And they've done a lot, uh, they have a lot of skills.

Erin Walsh: (15:03)

They've built a lot of skills. But I think what we hear from young people is, “I wish adults would understand that it's not just as simple as not having social media or turning off my phone.” That that might be part of it, but it's actually quite complicated. . Yeah. Like how to be a good friend is tricky, um, to figure out how do I stay present for someone who's suffering, who's texting me, but also I'm not supposed to have my phone at dinner. Um, and also my screen time just went up, but this friend is saying they're relying on me. Like, those are tricky situations. Yeah, for sure. And so, how do we offer wisdom is first by acknowledging that it's hard. It can be hard . So starting with that sort of like, ugh, it is tricky. And just taking a beat and taking a breath sometimes, um, is all young people need, they have some of the wisdom inside of them and, and just acknowledging the space of that they don't have to just clinging to their phones with all their lives.

Erin Walsh: (15:58)

Um, but that we could set it down for a minute and just acknowledge that this is tough. Um, and I think the older, the teen, especially-  asking, asking if we can offer advice can be a helpful step. So I know that these situations do not always go beautifully in textbook, but saying, Hey, do you wanna, do you wanna hear some thoughts? Um, do you want my help problem solving this? Um, or do you just wanna like, sit with it for a little bit and we could talk about it tomorrow? So I think sometimes we forget to that with teenagers, we have a little bit of the gift of time that we can wait until after we've had a good night's sleep to problem-solve with them. Or we could hear something that's deeply concerning and take a deep breath and pick up that thread the next day when we feel a little less panicky. So there are some things that require urgent attention. There are safety things that we don't wanna delay. But I do think that sort of validating, asking for permission, planting seeds, and then revisiting when we're in a good place where our kids can actually listen or where they're open to listening goes a long way.

Hillary Wilkinson: (17:03)

Great. Yeah. So when we come back, let's talk more about the specific challenges that teens are facing today with tech. 

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Ad Break: Healthy Screen Habits for Tweens and Teens Workbook

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Hillary Wilkinson:

I'm speaking with Erin Walsh from Spark and Stitch Institute, an organization that delivers science and strategies to raise connected and courageous kids in the digital age. So Erin, there is a lot of disconnection out there resulting from tech, right? Yeah. Whether it is algorithmic push or just experience blocking that comes from these devices in our hands. And even, or like, I mean, right now, I think even more so than ever, the continued silo building of ideas. Yeah. Yeah. You know, um, so we have this need for human connection and it's never been greater, and yet we've never been lonelier. Yeah. As, as a species. And I get, I mean, that is something we work on, is we call it relational health. You know, how to create connections, set experiences, start communication, all of those things, which I feel like you're gifted at, just listening to you. Um, what I don't know is how you do this second part of your mission statement. How do you raise courageous kids? 

Erin Walsh: (19:16)

Yeah. That's such a beautiful question. 'cause that's a word we throw around a lot. Um, and it's like, okay, what, what is that? I, we all want it. Like, I haven't met somebody who's like, “nah, don't care, . It's courageous. Not a big deal.” Um, but I think when we actually dig into it, like we know, you maybe have heard right, the root of the word courage is core or heart. Um, and so while we talk about courage sometimes culturally as like, synonymous with this sort of like, battle or bravery at the root of it, I think a lot of it is about helping our kids act in alignment with their values, with their beliefs, um, with compassion for themselves and for others. But the, the trick is that we can't just like assign kids courage. We can't tell them “Go be courageous!” I know. Um, and courage is gonna look really different in different settings and at different ages.

Erin Walsh: (20:06)

So the question is, how do we model it? How do we plant the seeds for it? And how do we just keep reminding ourselves that the job is not to raise kids who are, who grow up, but also know who to, how to show up for themselves and for others. And I think what can be helpful for me as a parent is to remind myself that that's not a, a switch that kids just turn on or off. Like it's ingrained or either courageous or not, that it's actually a set of skills that's built over time. Um, so skills like self-awareness of what am I feeling right now? Am I, am I feeling angry or am I feeling embarrassed? Am I feeling worried ? Um, am I feeling, uh, pain for somebody else's experience? Um, and being able to sort of settle my body enough to be able to consider somebody else's feelings, uh, to understand that what somebody else needs and wants is not the same as what I need and want when they're in pain or suffering.

Erin Walsh: (21:03)

I mean, these are big skills, that many adults struggle to put into practice, that I sometimes struggle to put into practice. Um, but the cool thing about these skills is that we, we talk with, with young people and with parents, is that reminder that whatever the brain does a lot of is what the brain gets good at. So the more that we practice things like naming my emotions, the more that we build a toolkit for regulating my feelings, the more that I'm noticing other people's emotions and trying to think about what are my values? Um, when does, you know, when does tech help me live into my values and when does it make it harder? Um, those are things that we do not in one big conversation. It's not something that we just manifest. It's something that we practice and we mess up and we experience the pain of messing up.

Erin Walsh: (21:51)

And we have an adult around us who's willing to say, that did not go the way that you wanted to . Right? Like, that group text thread went off the rails, people got really hurt and you didn't say anything. And it's, it's hard, hard so could, so what could we do? What, what are the different things we could do now? What's the next step? What do we, what's the next right thing as they say? So those are the kinds of, I think we certainly model and we, we talk about our values, um, but we also are willing to sort of, uh, coach our kids consistently through these mini dilemmas that allow them to tap into what do I believe in? What am I feeling, what's right, what's wrong, and what do I try next? Yeah. And that happens in little ways, uh, throughout childhood, adolescence and honestly into our adult lives. .

Hillary Wilkinson: (22:36)

Oh, for sure. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. There's that whole phrase, you know, “you've gotta name it to tame it”. Yeah. With the emotional awareness. Yep. And I think it's, um, it's particularly, you know, they've done, um, you're the expert, you're gonna know way more about this than I, but I've read about, um, like gender studies where they have found that, you know, women and girls have a lot of words to describe emotions Yeah, yeah. At their regular, you know, in their sort of verbal lexicon, if you will. Yeah. Where they can immediately access those words like frustration, irritated, yeah. Annoyed, you know, all of those things.

Erin Walsh: (23:15)

Yeah. This range.

Hillary Wilkinson: (23:17)

Yes. Exactly. And it's kind of like that whole thing of the Inuit culture has, has a million words to describe snow.

Hillary Wilkinson: (23:32)

Yeah, exactly. Whereas, you know, us, Adobe, Southern California folk, or it's snow . Yeah. You know? Yeah. But that being said, people identifying as boys, or raised as boys tend to only have two main emotions, happy and mad. Yeah. You know, those are the things that they have. Yeah. Those are, maybe you have a, you have a boy that, that will also click sad. Yeah. But that's, I think it's so important that we give lots of experiences to really grow that emotional vocabulary, so that Absolutely. People can, I mean, we are all the same with our, with our human experience Yeah. And emotional life. We just, um, we don't wanna create subtractive language. We wanna Yeah. Include it all.

Erin Walsh: (24:22)

Yeah. Ab absolutely. And I think part of that is, again, that sort of modeling, you know, um, that we have adults who identify as men in young people's lives who are able to model that. Like that. I have more than two feelings that I talk about feelings too, that you don't just go, um, to girls or women to talk about feelings that we're all, that we all are practicing having that sort of range. And I think for parents who didn't grow up talking a lot about feelings, it's okay to say, you know what, this is kind of new to me. Yeah. I grew up, I grew up learning a different lesson about this, and I kind of want something different for you. So anger, I go to anger fast. But I am realizing that there's a lot of things underneath that. And I think it's okay for us to be sort of these sort of works in progress and modeling that a little bit, um, can give us all permission to have those kinds of awkward or bumpy conversations. Right. Um, that we know teens may not think us for in the moment, but ultimately benefit from when we're able to say, you know, what came out was anger, but underneath it was fear. Right. Um, or underneath it was embarrassment. Um, and now that I know what it is, I might respond a little differently. Right. Right.

Hillary Wilkinson: (25:28)

And I think just so, so we're very clear how this all relates to tech habits is a lot of times people will use their devices as kind of a numbing technique. Yeah. You know, where you get put in a place of high emotion and you reach for the thing, it's like the law of the least, right? Yeah. Yeah. You reach for, for the thing that will distract you out of that emotion, and it doesn't ever quite, you know, resolve that. So I think that's, that's how this all relates back to tech habits.

Erin Walsh: (26:04)

Yeah. I think that's, that's beautiful. 

Hillary Wilkinson: (26:05)

And then that Right. And then that, that creates this perpetuation of tech overuse, which then puts your, your child or yourself, even in this heightened state of vulnerability for, for tech overuse, which can lead to exposure to, you know, explicit material and fomo and all, all of the things, right? Yeah.

Erin Walsh: (26:29)

Yeah. What we really want for teenagers is we want a, a range of tools mm-hmm . So is it fine for a teenager who's feeling sad to come home and listen to a playlist to just chill out or maybe play a half hour of video games on it? Alone, it's not inherently bad to sometimes use distraction. Um, but if that's the only tool and that's your go-to tool, that's where we wanna be really concerned. We wanna see adolescents grow a range of tools to manage and move through their emotions. And it relates to tech in terms of, you know, are they using those? Are they, instead of turning to their phone, are they using a broad, a range of tools? And then as they practice that when they are in unsafe places online, or they are in an online conflict, young people who've had practice noticing their feelings, regulating their emotions, are much more likely in the heat of that online conflict.

Erin Walsh: (27:18)

Or they see some cyber bullying behavior, or they see something or are asked of something online that does not feel right. Right. If I've had practice cueing into my feelings to say, oh, okay, this, there's, I'm, I'm, this, I'm regulating my emotions enough to be able to access my thinking brain to keep myself safe or to keep my friends safe, or to figure out a healthy next step. Um, all of that is related. So both tech habits in terms of reg, how do we regulate our feelings, but also learning those regulation strategies so that when we're in online environments, we can access, you know, what we've been talking about is emotional courage. Um, but the ability to sort of think about how do I, how do I do what's right for me and for the people I care about in these spaces?

Hillary Wilkinson: (28:01)

Right. Right. So this kind of feeds into a zone that I think is, um, really interesting and it's cutting edge and brand new in technology is AI and chatbots, and I specifically the

Erin Walsh: (28:18)

The brave new future.

Hillary Wilkinson: (28:19)

Right. Okay. So I specifically would like to talk to you about the relationships that we're hearing about AI romantic partners. I mean, tragically earlier this year, we learned about Sewell Setzer, a 14-year-old Florida teen who took his life at the request of his AI girlfriend to come join him. Yeah. And we continue to hear about other bots that are offering. What can, be perceived as nefarious solutions?  I would say, you know, and I, I personally continue to receive emails from a very flirty chatbot I had, because

Erin Walsh: (29:05)

I, who will not let it go.

Hillary Wilkinson: (29:06)

No, exactly. I mean, I went on to Character AI when this first started coming out. You know, you gotta kind of, you know, taste the water that we're swimming in here. I had a brief one-time interaction with, months ago with this chatbot when I was testing the platform. I have never responded to any of the emails. And yet without fail, they keep showing up every few weeks. And I just think, wow, if I was 15, if I was 14, you know, knowing that these platforms are so readily accessible Yeah. There's no age verification, there's no anything.

Erin Walsh: (29:45)

Regulation, no.

Hillary Wilkinson: (29:47)

How, how do we talk to our kids about these AI relationships?

Erin Walsh: (29:51)

Yeah. Well, first of all, I love, I love the question, um, because our first step is just to acknowledge that teens are using generative AI , um, and they're using it at an increasingly accelerated pace. So as we look at the data of like daily users, it's going up quite quickly. So the latest Common Sense Media study, right, that came out this fall reminded us that, you know, 37, only 37% of parents thought that their kids were using generative AI of the kids who were using it. Um, so, so what we know is that there's this gap between teen use and our understanding of how often kids are using it. Now, most adolescents are using Gen AI for things like homework help, but I think when you're pointing to this sort of companion bots, uh, chatbots, we do know that 18% of adolescents who use gen AI do use it for what they call personal issues or health issues.

Erin Walsh: (30:42)

15% have used it, uh, to have somebody keep me company in quotes. Um, so whether that is a chat friend, a sounding board, or in, you know, we are hearing that young people are using sort of these as, as romantic relationships mm-hmm . Or exploring or being curious about what that looks like in terms of romantic relationships. So acknowledging that kids are, we're not ahead of them by starting these conversations. Like that's our our first step, um, is we tend to be behind. So starting the conversation, um, early, and I do think, I just wanna point, uh, Common Sense Media, Hope Lab and the Harvard Center for Digital Thriving did a study last spring, and they did ask young people, how are you using these tools? Um, and I just wanna read a few of the quotes. These are not, this is not, not my research, but that study, you know, one teenager said, “you know, that robot makes me feel important.”

Erin Walsh: (31:33)

Another young person said, you know, “That robot listens to me.” Um, so I think we do wanna understand like what the purpose is, why our teens are going there, and getting back to those curious questions, which I think at this point, it's like, we know, we know the curious questions, but this is an important point, um, because we might have some young people who are like, yeah, I kinda like ask this companion for advice on what to do with my friendships at soccer. And then most of the time I'm spending, you know, in these offline relationships, and other teenagers are using companion chatbots to avoid the overwhelming or anxiety-producing work of negotiating social life as an adolescent. And those are two very different uses. Some kids are dabbling in it 'cause they're curious and they think it's hilarious, and others are forming real emotional reliance.

Erin Walsh: (32:24)

We wanna know the difference, and we wanna start asking kids questions like, as Dr. Emily Weinstein encourages us to do at the Center for Digital Thriving, um, asking our kids questions like, “What kinds of questions are easier to ask a robot than a human?” Um, oh, I love that. Uhhuh , you know, so, so that we're starting to get a sense of where, what are you going to these robots for? Um, and I think what we know about adolescents in particular is that lectures about longer term harms are important. It's like basic information kids should know, but they don't tend to be nearly as influential as having sort of a critical lens based in teens, sort of near term rewards and goals. Okay. So as opposed to being like, uh, you know, those chatbots are inherently bad and they're gonna ruin your life and you'll never have a friendship. You know, I, that's probably not the language we would use, but where we come really down with.

Hillary Wilkinson: (33:17)

Right, that's kind of our, our gut feeling. 

Erin Walsh: (33:19)

It's like, uh, humanity's on its way to

Hillary Wilkinson: (33:21)

That's against the robots. Yeah.

Erin Walsh: (33:23)

Yeah, exactly. And this is just a vacuum of soul. Um, but asking those kinds of curious questions and then activating a little bit of that critical lens, like, do you know who makes these chatbots? Like, do you know how they generate responses? Um, you know, how do we, what are the, some of the ethics around like, and I think back to your beautiful invitation earlier in the podcast of like, maybe there's a, a film or a short piece or a podcast that kids can listen to where we can say, Hey, have you heard this? Like, what are, what are your friends saying about this? Um, what, what, what questions are easier to ask a robot, but who's designing the robots and why do they say what they say? So activating a little bit of that kind of critical lens of what do you want, what do you actually want right now?

Erin Walsh: (34:08)

I want, I want, uh, I want to be seen, I wanna be heard, I want, um, I want some sort of ad advice that doesn't feel judgy or shameful because I think a lot of kids go on the internet to ask questions that they're too embarrassed to ask in real life, we've been doing that forever. The stakes are just much higher now. Um, and so, you know, knowing the purpose is really helpful so we can activate that critical awareness. And also if they're going online for information, making sure they have evidence-based information, making sure, oh, you know, if you're interested in that, here's some places that you can look. Um, right.

Hillary Wilkinson: (34:47)

That kind of gets into that digital citizenship versus digital literacy component.

Erin Walsh: (34:52)

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So, so curious questions, activating some critical awareness of, of, you know, the literacy around bots and gen AI and the ethics of it. Um, and then really, really keeping an eye as a, as a caregiver on sort of like, what are the red flags? So when we're starting to see sort of, uh, avoidance behavior, um, when we start to see that it's starting to take over, that it's the go-to tool for advice, for emotional regulation, for affirmation, um, these tech companies have made these really frictionless relational environments that are designed to sort of affirm and mirror back mm-hmm . Um, there's no guardrails. And while there may be some positive uses of getting some ideas, unfortunately that's, we don't know that that's going to be the outcome 'cause we just don't have regulation or Yeah. And we don't, we honestly don't have good data on this yet 'cause it's so new.

Erin Walsh: (35:50)

Um, but what we do know is that just, uh, sending adolescents into a world of AI companions and hoping that it works out okay, um, is not the best. It's not the best move. The window of opportunity for social skill development and for identity development is wide, is wide open. They're going to be accessing these tools. Um, and so starting those conversations early, uh, really, really matters as they start thinking about, you know, what kind of friendships do I want? And acknowledging that offline friendships are hard . Um, and how, and but also what are, what are some of the gifts that come from it and how does that compare, um, to, uh, to a robot and what, what, what, what is the robot good at? And what is the robot really not good at in terms of the things that I want?

Hillary Wilkinson: (36:39)

Yeah. We have to take a short break, but when we come back, I'm gonna ask Erin for her healthy screen habit. 

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Hillary Wilkinson:

I'm speaking with Erin Walsh, co-founder of Spark and Stitch Institute, and author of It's Their World Teens Screens and the Science of Adolescents dropping on May 13th, get your copy now! Erin. On every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask for a healthy screen habit. And this is going to be a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice right away in their own home. What's yours?

Erin Walsh: (38:29)

Yeah. So it's gonna come up no surprise, given the theme of this podcast, but, uh, ask your teen a curious question, but here is the, the real tip, um, is notice your own pull to judge, to lecture, to make assumptions, uh, to jump to conclusions. Just notice that reaction and just do everything that you can to listen and just note before you respond, note what concerns you, what impresses you, what worries you, and what excites you. Um, whatever the brain does, a lot of is what the brain gets good at. Yeah. We can get better at asking our kids curious questions.

Hillary Wilkinson: (39:08)

Yeah. And I like your advice earlier of, you know, just because your teen is answering this curious question doesn't mean that you have to react to it right away. Yeah. You can just receive the information,

Erin Walsh: (39:21)

Receive and breathe, breathe through it. Exactly. Receive and breathe. That is like the art of parenting a teenager.

Hillary Wilkinson: (39:28)

Yeah. And then maybe revisit it if you need to.

Erin Walsh: (39:31)

It doesn't mean ignoring it. Mm-hmm . In fact, um, often when we revisit it, we come to it with a lot more intention. Um, and, and sometimes our kids say nothing at all. So I just wanna acknowledge that. Sometimes you ask a curious question and they're like, p and other times they're like, I'm good. , and no. And that, that is not a sign to stop. That's just a sign to try again another day.

Hillary Wilkinson: (39:54)

Yes. As always, you can find a complete transcript of this show, as well as a link to Spark and Stitch Institute and Erin's new book by visiting the show notes for this episode. You do this by going to Healthy ScreenHabits.org. Click on the podcast button and scroll down. You'll find this episode right up front. Aaron, thank you so much for being here today for all of your work in the world to build connections and healthy relationships and kind of unravel the mysteries of adolescents and teens.

Erin Walsh: (40:28)

Thank you so much for having me. And likewise, thank you so much for your work in the world. We need everybody at the table.