Hillary Wilkinson:

My guest today did a brave thing when she recognized that technology was encroaching on her ability to connect with herself, her relationships, and her faith, she unplugged. Welcome to Healthy Screen Habits, Hannah Brencher!

Hannah Brencher: (00:42)

Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here and have this conversation.

Hillary Wilkinson: (00:47)

Same! Hannah, your book, The Unplugged Hours, Cultivating a Life of Presence in a Digitally Connected World has just come out. Yay, Hannah. Yay. Yes! So, I read a lot, probably not as much as you! Hannah's Ted Talk: The World Needs More Love Letters has over 4 million views on YouTube. I'll link it in the show notes. Uh, you really wanna just take a moment and watch it. It's adorable. Your Ted Talk Hannah speaks deeply to the importance of noticing others putting positive energy and love in the world and the mail, like post office kind of mail. Yeah. And you, you get a lot of it. So that's why I think you probably read a lot more than myself!

Hillary Wilkinson: (02:11)

And that being said, I, the stuff I read tends to focus a lot on digital wellness and the impact that technology is having on the human experience. And I gotta tell you, yeah, your book, The Unplugged Hours, it's just beautiful. It reads like, like a journey type of a story or like a well crafted tale of struggle. And I, I think it's probably going to get filed in the self-help category, but honestly it's the story part that I find so impactful. Your story goes back to when your daughter was very young. Yeah. Why do you feel like now was the time to write the book and get the story out?

Hannah Brencher: (03:06)

Yeah. You know, I didn't, um, I really didn't think at first that I was going to be book writing on unplugging. That was not part of it. I was not my goal. Um, I started powering down for myself in 2021 and that was mainly because I was realizing like, oh, I feel exhausted all the time. I feel fatigued by the screens. I feel like I'm constantly checking out when I want to be more present with the life around me. And my daughter was very young at the time. She was just a little over a year old. And I was realizing like, I am the first teacher in this arena for her. And so if she is a baby and we are talking all the time about how babies can notice everything, they're taking in information, they're seeing what we're doing. I was like, if I'm reaching for my phone all the time and it's consistently pulling me away from her, what story am I telling her?

Hannah Brencher: (04:06)

And is it a story that I want to be telling her? And so that was my, um, mission for unplugging. And I remember at the time, 'cause I'd already written three other books, like I would have like, you know, you have these check-in meetings with like the publisher to, or your editor to like determine like, hey, like, do you have another idea? What are you thinking about for the future? And in those meetings they would consistently bring up the unplugging and I would be like, no. Like, I'm not saying this couldn't be a book in the future, but I'm doing this for me. And it has to be for me. And, um, I think I would've gone through that unplugged time completely differently if I thought at the end of it there was going to be a book coming from it. I think I would've been doing a lot more like nitty gritty details, a lot more like research in the moment.

Hannah Brencher: (05:01)

Like a lot more introspection. And I had to remove myself from that need to constantly produce something out of my life to just be in it for myself to just claim my life back from technology. And so it's so funny that you brought that up about how the book is likely going to get put into self-help, because I didn't write a self-help book. Like I wrote a story and it's definitely like, there's practicality laced throughout, there's research and anecdotes laced throughout. But what's so funny about it, and like no one has brought that up is that like my writing style, I think completely changed in the process of writing this book. And I got back to a form of writing that I was doing when I first set out to write, which was more creative nonfiction than anything else. And I think the more I was online, the more I was on my screens, the more I became programmed to believe I can have all the answers. I can give all the answers, I can be an expert in all the things. And it's funny how unplugging really kind of made that desire fade and I became more comfortable with being like, you know what? I don't need to know all the answers. I just wanna tell really thought provoking stories and make people think and make people want to be more intentional.

Hillary Wilkinson: (06:21)

Yeah. No, and I think what you've just touched on with how everybody has the ability now to be a subject matter expert based on these little boxes that we carry in our pockets, I do feel that it feeds anxiety. I feel like they're. Oh yeah, I was a full-time teacher prior to being a mom. Now I substitute teach and, but I'm just aware of myself in the class before I was very aware that, you know, I could, I could kind of talk about things and, you know, give a roundabout explanation and now I know I better get it straight because there's going to be fact checking. Mm-Hmm. and I, and I know with the, with teens that I've worked with, they're, you know, that that need of knowing everything is

Hannah Brencher: (07:24)

Yeah. Really.

Hillary Wilkinson: (07:26)

Yeah. And so I, I, uh, I, I identify with what you're saying I think it's, this is part of what resonated with me while reading the Unplugged Hours is this recognition of all the amazing things that technology can give us. But unless we manage it and set boundaries that can really take over. Knowing what you've done going through your unplugging, what, what advice do you have for setting healthy tech boundaries?

Hannah Brencher: (08:08)

Gosh, you know, I think for me, it was so funny. I had an interview, um, recently with somebody who, like, I've done interviews with them before. And so like, they were bringing things up from past interviews when we would talk about tech. 'cause it's been an ongoing theme in my life. And I was like, oh, wow, like my tech habits have changed in ways I didn't even realize because they were bringing up the fact that I used to have, um, like the time restrictions on my phone and my husband would have the passcode for them and like in a season that was how I had the boundaries. But what's so interesting about it is when I decided to introduce into my story, like this concept of unplugging and tracking unplugged hours, hour by hour, um, it's funny how a lot of the boundaries and things that I had to put into, into place for behavior modification stopped holding weight.

Hannah Brencher: (09:04)

Like I stopped needing them because I was introducing something into my life that was so life giving and I could see the results from it almost instantly that it like changed these other habits that I think for a long time I came at it from a place of shame. Like whenever I would look at my screen time, I felt shame. And that's why I ended up turning off screen time. 'cause I was like, this is not helping. We cannot change our behaviors from a place of shame. And so I just went hour by hour tracking, like every hour that I was unplugged, I would just highlight the hour. And sometimes I would take little notes of like what I did with that hour, or if I read a book, or if I did a workout, or if I played with my daughter. And as time stacked up, that was when I was like, oh, okay. This is so worth it. Like, I wanna keep doing this because I've seen hours come back on my life. Um, and so it's just really interesting how I used to need to have all these boundaries. And now I just look for the places in my days where I'm like, what do I want to be unplugged for? What do I want to be fully present for? And then how do I set up the parameters to do that? 

Hillary Wilkinson: (10:21)

And that's classic habit change behavior, you know, you can't take something away without putting something in its place. Yep. We know that from, you know, um, addiction studies from anything else, whether it's a behavioral habit Yeah. You're looking or something else. Like you have to do a replacement. And, um, it, I love that what you found your replacement was just investing in yourself. I think that, you know, that was your greatest return. I love that. I love it. And

Hannah Brencher: (10:54)

I think to that point, it's interesting 'cause like being like a new mom, you know, at the time, and like, you'd get to the end of a long day and you're like, well, I'm gonna scroll because I deserve this because this is like my way to like check in with myself. And I realized like, no, this is not checking in. This is actually checking out. And this is not self-care. Like I understand that life is hard. So sometimes like we feel like I just need to go on a Netflix binge, or I just need to scroll on TikTok. But I had to get to the point of being like, no, I wanna parent myself better because like my daughter left to her own devices would want to watch shows all day and eat Hershey's. And that would be it for her. And I have to step in as a parent and say, I know you want this, but I'm gonna give you what you need so that you can grow up healthy.

Hannah Brencher: (11:45)

But then why don't I do the same thing for myself? Like, why don't I say, you know what, I know . Right? Like, and that's like, we were talking about that before, but like, it's so interesting to me that we talk so much about screen time with kids. And I'm like, and I've had conversations with other moms about it, but it has only ever made me put the magnifying glass on my own behaviors because I've realized I'm either going to be a model or I'm gonna be a manager and a manager at some point. If I'm not modeling it, she's just gonna pick it up when she's old enough. But if I can model to her, this is what it looks like and this is the joy that comes from it. And I think I can say that with like, so much clarity because I had a mom who modeled it so well. Like my mom is literally the most present human that you will ever come across. Um, and for years we tried to get her to get a cell phone and she didn't want one because she really didn't wanna have to be that accessible to people, you know? Um, and I think for years I was frustrated by that, but now I look back and I'm like, oh, okay. She like knew what was happening. Like she is like aware of the way in which these screens are really just like, they're taking us from one another. Yeah.

Hillary Wilkinson: (12:58)

Yeah, that's part of the whole, like, I, I know I keep talking about like the storytelling within your book, but it's just, I love that how you make these generational connections between yourself and your, your mom and your daughter and just the, the ongoing impact, you know? Yeah. And part of your story, you're very open about being on kind of a constant active pursuit of betterment and it manifests itself in a lot of ways that you share, including this Yeah. We're, we're, we're calling it “The Unplugging”, but I feel like we need to define what it is, what it was this 1000 hour challenge Mm-Hmm. that you embarked upon. Yeah. So a thousand hours. I did the math on it, 41 days and 16 hours. I mean, that is okay. Yeah. That is a massive amount of time. Yeah. How, how long did it take you to meet your goal?

Hannah Brencher: (14:03)

I did it in one year. Um, and that was the goal was to do it in one year because I could have gone, you know, I could have gone cold turkey for 40 days and then we would've been done. But I was like, but that's not realistic for my lifestyle. Like, my business is run via social media. I'm a social media manager for other companies. I know and believe in the power of technology, so I can't just get offline, throw it all away. And a lot of people can't do that. A lot of people for their jobs are gonna need email. They're going to, like, you literally can't go anywhere today without needing your phone for something. You can't even like walk into like Whole Foods or Target without being like, oh, there's like a payment portal coupon thing here. You know? Um, and so for me it wasn't so much like, can I throw it away?

Hannah Brencher: (14:55)

And then what will be the result of it? It was like, can I strike a balance? Is there a balance to be found? And so when I did the math, it was a thousand hours that came out to roughly three to four unplugged hours a day. And a lot of people look at that first glance and they're like, totally doable. Then they come back to me and they're like, it's actually really hard. And I'm like, yeah. 'cause like, we're so used to just having our phones in everything. But what I learned along the way was like, okay, like there were designated times in my day where I knew I wanted to be unplugged, like my morning routine, like in the evenings when we were having dinner. And then I introduced, um, a Sabbath into my routines. And so every week I take a 24 hour break.

Hannah Brencher: (15:41)

It's not completely offline, but like, I'm not on social media and I am primarily off of my phone. And I found that I would sometimes, you know, get 10 or 12 unplugged hours in that one day. Um, and so it stacks up little by little. Um, it's funny you brought up that part about the betterment, because that was, I think, something that really did come from the constant connectivity. Like, I've always been a girl that like, loves the New Year's resolution, loves a challenge. But I do remember having this moment, I think it was like around hour 800, where I was like, okay, but like, if you don't finish this challenge, like you're on track to finish it, but if you don't, is this enough? Like, is the fact that you reclaimed this many hours enough? And when do you make the decision that you're just going to be proud in the process? Like, that was a big shifting point for me. It's like, it's not all about betterment. You don't always have to be like self-improving. Like you are allowed to just be, you are allowed to be in process. You are allowed to just enjoy the ride. And that's been a really hard lesson to come by.

Hillary Wilkinson: (16:56)

And it's such, it totally speaks to early childhood development where we just focus so much more on process over product. But as we get older, we focus more and more and more on product. So Yeah.

Hannah Brencher: (17:09)

Yeah. It's so true.

Hillary Wilkinson: (17:11)

Yeah. When we come back, we're going to talk about how Hannah Brencher’s Unplugged Hours became a tool for connection.

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Hillary Wilkinson

I'm speaking with Hannah Brecher, who is a writer, a Ted speaker, and an entrepreneur. Her latest book, the Unplugged Hours, cultivating a Life of Presence in a Digitally Connected World is one that I am recommending to parenting groups and book clubs. It has a faith-based component to it. So it's even something that if you have like a small group in your place of worship and want to explore disconnecting from tech to reconnect with humanity or your faith or yourself, it would be a good one. It really would. Hannah was named as one of the White Houses women working to do Good. She's been featured in the Wall Street Journal, Oprah Glamor, USA Today and now Healthy Screen Habits.

Hannah Brencher: (18:27)

The best one yet! 

Hillary Wilkinson: (18:31)

Oh my gosh, thank you. .

Let's add that to your bio. Hannah!

Hillary Wilkinson: (18:38)

Well, so seriously now , I I really appreciate the candor that you have in your book, talking about the very real feelings of, we call it like the compare and despair phenomena that happens Mm-Hmm. with social media. Yeah. And can you, can you kind of talk about your like, journey of realization of how over spectating, I think those were your words over spectating was negatively affecting your own creativity and happiness? Mm-Hmm. .

Hannah Brencher: (19:15)

Yeah. I think that was probably a few hundred hours into the challenge, like where I was still, you know, posting on social media, but like, I didn't, I remember like not wanting to, like, I remember feeling really fatigued, really tired, very much like, oh my gosh, social media is like draining so much from me and it's affecting other areas. And that was when I dug in and was like, you know what? Like, I'm gonna figure this out within the context of these unplugged hours because if this is not fun anymore, I'm not doing this. This is way too much output for me to not be enjoying this process. When I used to really enjoy the process. And for me, what I found was I had grown really used to getting onto social media to figure out what to post or getting onto social media, seeing everybody post and then saying, I have to post too.

Hannah Brencher: (20:09)

And I, if you've ever been in that space before, whatever you post from that place, it's never good. It's never a good feeling. If you feel like you're just posting to catch up with everybody else. Like, then you, there's almost like a sort of desperation to what you're putting out there, a desperation to what you are creating. And so for me, I really had to reclaim my creative process, and that was a process that I did primarily unplugged, um, and reclaiming my writing time. And I noticed that as I reclaim my writing time, as I put my energy into creating thoughtful, longer form pieces out of that came the overflow of sharing that content on social media. And so I was getting it wrong for a while. I was like trying to create things for social media and then not understanding why I wasn't like deeply creative anymore.

Hannah Brencher: (21:06)

And then I had to switch the mode to, okay, I am going to invest in my creative process. And as a result, I had things to share on social media. Um, and so I went back to like old school unplugged, like writing on yellow notepads, like just allowing myself the space to think and process and wonder. And I mean, I'm telling you my like, creativity, like skyrocketed and it like continues to be this like really rich and vibrant place. And I think it's because I'm not feeling all the pockets of my day with like, scrolling or checking in, but more so like, I'm allowing myself space and time to just think or ponder or wonder or be curious about things. And that comes alongside like just being in your own life, being present in your own life, watering your own grass, rather than worrying about the grass of all these other people. Um, because yeah, I've struggled with comparison for a really long time, but through the unplugged hours was able to say like, oh, okay. Like, but like, I'm not really wanting to compare myself to these people. I'm wanting to cheer them on. I'm wanting them to win, but like, I can't actually feel that way if I'm not running my own race.

Hillary Wilkinson: (22:25)

Yeah. And I think it's so important also to recognize that you had the foundation, when you're talking about this, this, um, journey that you've used the phrase several times going back to Mm-Hmm. , my concern is that for kids today, there will be no, “going back to” there's a, like, that is why we really, really have to protect these foundational years and the foundational times Yeah. Of knowing how, like, like you say, you're, you're a yellow notepad girl, you know, I'm like, yeah. I'm like, you, you know that about yourself. I, myself, I'm an index card person, , you know, but it's

Hannah Brencher: (23:15)

Exactly.

Hillary Wilkinson: (23:15)

But but you have to have those hours in -  with the relationship with yourself to know what are your chosen tools. So

Hannah Brencher: (23:28)

It's so true.

Hillary Wilkinson: (23:29)

Yeah. Yeah. What do you wish that other people knew about creativity and this need for sacred space or aloneness?

Hannah Brencher: (23:44)

I mean, I just wish that people, you know, I wish people knew the value of it, but I think a lot of times, like we don't see the value in it. 'cause we don't want to be alone with ourselves. Like, and that's always been a common problem of like, I don't wanna be alone with my thoughts. I don't wanna be alone in a quiet room. And we have these tools now that make it so that we never have to be, but like, I don't know, like there's a quote from Ann Lamont, um, who's one of my favorite authors, and she says, um, that she said, my mind is a, is like a bad neighborhood that I don't like to walk alone in at night. And I always like, wanna add an addendum to that because I'm like, yes, I have felt that, I have felt that way about my own mind, but at the same time, like I don't want it to stay that way.

Hannah Brencher: (24:29)

I wanna be like the cleanup committee and like, I want my mind to be like this highly creative space that I actually want to be inside of because I have to be inside of it anyway. You know? Um, and so that's one of the things that like I've learned over time of like doing the work, investing in the quiet spaces, sitting in stillness, and then letting creativity come out of that. It's like, oh, I'm so much more comfortable with myself. I'm so much more, like, I tell people a lot, like the unplugged hours has allowed me to get back to the person that was there before all the noise got in. And I really liked that girl that existed like 10 years ago. That was when, you know, I started getting on the internet, blogging, all of that stuff, and none of that was bad. But at the time I was like highly creative. I was more brave and courageous. Like I just had more of an inner world. And then over time lost that. And I think a lot of us lost that just to being on our screen so much that we forget who existed before all the noise piled in.

Hillary Wilkinson: (25:38)

Yeah. And it's, um, it's un I I like how you talk about the uncomfortability of being just with ourselves. Yeah. And we live in this, we live in this world right now that we don't know how to be uncomfortable anymore. I mean, we, we have so much, I mean, we're too hot. We can turn on the ac you know? Oh, thirsty. There's always water within reach or easy walking distance. I mean, this is a very privileged life that many people have worked so hard to afford us. And I am so grateful for their efforts. And with that, I also recognize that we are out of practice with discomfort, , and

Hannah Brencher: (26:23)

Absolutely. How,

Hillary Wilkinson: (26:25)

How do you encourage people to address this discomfort that comes as they begin to unplug? Like how do you, how do you navigate that when we're so out of practice? It's like, it's a completely atrophied muscle for me. I know. Yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm not, I'm not comfortable being uncomfortable

Hannah Brencher: (26:48)

No, I get that. And like, it's definitely, I mean, unplugging is uncomfortable and I don't know that it becomes less so, like, there are definitely times now where I like go to unplug and I'm like relieved and excited because I know like, you know, it's like a good workout. It's gonna be hard to get me to want to go into the gym and do that workout, but I leave and I'm glad that I did it, you know? Um, and so with unplugging, like there is a certain level of discomfort and I think a lot of it comes from our phones and technology have wired us so that we always feel there's something to be doing. We always have to be on, we always have to be checking another thing. We always have to be like, there's always gonna be something more. And I think that's the harder feeling to break is like the uncomfortableness of doing nothing or doing something that is not quote unquote productive.

Hannah Brencher: (27:43)

You know, like reading a book that is just for pleasure, like fiction or something, or going for a walk around the block with your child or whatever. It's so easy to fall into like the need for metrics, the need to be doing something productive. And yet I've questioned like, well, how much of that is innately in us? And how much of that came just by technology, like pressing the pedal and pressing the pedal and pressing the pedal? Because like, that would be the bigger thing that I would sit with. That's something I have sat with. It's like, why do I feel the need to always be on? Why do I feel like I always have to have my phone or I always have to be sharing what's going on on my phone? You know, like, why can't I be comfortable with myself and comfortable with being alone? 

Hannah Brencher: (28:31)

Like, those are good questions to ask, good questions to dig into because there's something waiting for you there. And so, like I always tell people too, like, if you are going to like start unplugging like hour by hour, the biggest suggestion that I can make is like, pick something that you want to do, something you've said for a while you've wanted to do. Um, and then turn off your phone and do that thing. Because like, if you turn off your phone and then you just say, “I'm gonna be unplugged”, you're gonna turn it back on in five minutes. 'cause you're gonna have nothing to do. But like, if you said, “I wanted to really declutter that closet”, or “I wanted to sit down and read”, or “I wanted to do a present time with my kid”, you know, you have something to move into. And it makes the transition easier because I feel like the stillness and the ability to just be quiet, like that comes with time and that comes with practice. It doesn't come the first hour you turn off your phone.

Hillary Wilkinson: (29:30)

Yeah. That's really good advice. Uh, we have to take a short break now, but when we come back, I'm going to ask Hannah for her healthy screen habit.

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Hillary Wilkinson:

I'm speaking with Hannah Brencher, the author of The Unplugged Hours, Cultivating a Life of Presence in a Digitally Connected World. So Hannah, one of the things that I've noticed in your work, there is a big theme of coffee .

Hannah Brencher: (30:27)

Oh my gosh, yes. Okay. Yes.

Hillary Wilkinson: (30:30)

I'm married to an individual who prides himself in a perfect pour over and an artful espresso and all the things, you know, and I have to ask, what's your favorite way to drink coffee?

Hannah Brencher: (30:44)

I just drink it black. Um, so I don't even do creamer or any of that sugar .

Hillary Wilkinson: (30:48)

Hardcore!

Hannah Brencher: (30:49)

Hardcore. Um, and it's so funny 'cause I do, oh my gosh, I do write about coffee so much and I think it's, 'cause to me, I feel like coffee is like a common language, right? Like we all either love coffee or know somebody that loves coffee no matter where you go in the world, coffee that's available, it just feels like a common thread that brings us together. It's a comfort.

Hillary Wilkinson: (31:11)

That's funny. Okay. On every episode of the, uh, Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask for a healthy screen habit. This is gonna be a tip or takeaway that people can put into place in their own home. What's yours?

Hannah Brencher: (31:27)

Yeah. So I, I utilized a little box. It's like a tin box that I got from Ikia. Nothing fancy. You don't need a fancy thing to get started. I think that's our biggest excuse is like, oh, well I don't have X, Y, and Z and so until I have that, I can't start. Um, and then what I will do is I'll put my phone in the box whether to work on like a bigger project or a piece of writing, or if you're having a hard time focusing, put your phone in the box. Make a list of four or five little tasks that might take 10 to 15 minutes each to complete. And then don't take your phone outta the box until you complete those things. Because guaranteed, you are going to feel so much better having addressed those things and done those things than to just mindlessly be grabbing the phone and saying, why am I getting nothing done?

Hannah Brencher: (32:46)

Mm-Hmm. . And then if there's an actual lid, like on the box, there's that act of like, okay, I'm taking the phone outta the box. Do I really want to do this? You know? Mm-Hmm. .

Hillary Wilkinson: (32:57)

Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. Putting in some speed bumps for yourself. Yes. Yeah. Excellent. As always, you can find a complete transcript of this show as well as a link to purchase the book we've been talking about, which dropped last month. Believe me, we only scratched the surface of all the great insight and research inside of it. You're gonna wanna get it. You do this by visiting the show notes for this episode. Go to healthy screen habits.org, click the podcast button and find this episode. Hannah, thank you so much for being here today and celebrating humanity, whether it be by love letters or conversation or anything in between, but all the work you do. I really feel like it just leans into the very best of keeping people connected. So thank you.

Hannah Brencher: (33:47)

Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.